BingoBoingo: Well, Argentines are talking about the possibility that "Brasil quits Mercosur" instead of the far more likely "Argentina suspended from Mercosur" (Venezuela is the precedent in this case)
lobbes: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-13#1928256 << it is inconclusive if the eggogs are a result of the znc2tmsr converter, or the znc logs themselves. Now that I have your logotron pressed onto my cuntoo workstation, I aim to get some irssi #e logs and run them through diana_coman's irssi2tmsr converter, and then snarf that into your logotron to see if I also get barf.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-11 18:49:12 mp_en_viaje: lobbes, and more importantly ... if you have it published today to lookat it in 2029 you can ; and if not you... can not. and so on.
asciilifeform: lobbes: a++ . i'ma try it in coming days ( need #a , #p eaten )
asciilifeform: lobbes: seems to me that it shouldn't be hard to find whether 'because znc logs themselves' -- look in the raw logs
lobbes: well, I definitely saw some oddities in the raw logs on my end (as in, some of the problem lines had e.g. apostropies rendered as '?' when I viewed them through the 'more' command, for example)
mimisbrunnr: Logged on 2019-08-14 02:31 lobbesbot: Logged on 2015-08-26 20:04:33: <mircea_popescu> "Or in my case, re-write a cooking book. So ladies and gentlorans, I give you Foxys Euloran Cookbook V1.1,"
asciilifeform: (i suspect answer lies deep in the CL libs that he used tho, and not necessarily in head.)
asciilifeform: quite arguably any proggy that uses heathen libs -- and pointedly includes my logger -- is pressed sawdust, worx until you hit whatever speshulcase the speshulchildren didn't think 'is possible'
asciilifeform: hey ben_vulpes, wanna come out of coma and say how you ate arbitrary unibarf ?
mp_en_viaje: The characters 128-159 are not used in ISO 8859-1 and Unicode, the character sets of HTML. MS-Windows uses a superset of ANSI/ISO 8859-1, known to experts as "Code Page 1252 (CP1252)", a Microsoft-specific character set with additional characters in the 128-159 range (also known as the "C1" range).
mp_en_viaje: All the CP1252 characters are also available in Unicode. For example the CP1252 character 146 that you mentioned (RIGHT SINGLE QUOTATION MARK) has the Unicode number 8217, therefore you should use this number in order to conform to the HTML standard. Modern HTML browsers like Netscape 4.0 understand Unicode, and will automatically convert the Unicode character ’ back into the character 146 on MS-Windows machines, and into the appropriate ch
mp_en_viaje: The official CP1252<->Unicode conversion table is printed in the Unicode 2.0 standard for instance, and is available on <ftp://ftp.informatik.uni-erlangen.de/pub/doc/ISO/charsets/> in the file ucs-map-cp1252. [See also the file ftp://ftp.unicode.org/Public/MAPPINGS/VENDORS/MICSFT/WINDOWS/CP1252.TXT at the official Unicode site.]
mp_en_viaje: MS-Windows HTML-authoring software definitely should implement the conversion table below! Please forward this mail to the developers of your HTML authoring tool if this is currently done wrong.
asciilifeform will walk lobbes 's uniturds hexdump tomorrow, after sleep, its 0130 here
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-13 13:55:23 asciilifeform: i'm beginning to suspect that nginx, apache, etc. are intrinsically dead weight, when sat in front of a programmatic html shitter
mp_en_viaje: if you're not spitting out the filesystem, and don't need apache to run the infrastructure of whatever scripting language for you (ie, use python's native interpreter, or cl, bash w/e, rather than php) then you don't, strictly speaking, need it.
mp_en_viaje: otoh, apache is to my knowledge the only case of linux userland with useful threading implemented, debugged, and working. may be cheaper to piggyback on that subsystem than implement own threads, esp on the batshit insane anti-useful toybox that is linux.
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: ostensibly was supposed to impedance-match, buffer, filter ddosistic shenanigans, etc. but turns out -- double-edged
mp_en_viaje: in general, fwis, it's ~always much better to do the "use apache for threading and fs-as-cache" model than anything else. but then again i'm not the hacker, don't let me keep you from your destiny.
mp_en_viaje: asciilifeform, this "filter ddos" thing is pipe dream. either you got outside box to do it, or you're nto doing.
mp_en_viaje: "box is not doing, routerallah is doing", how shall i put this. there's no way to prevent a stampede as the guy being stampeded, it should be self-obvious
asciilifeform: the front-ends promise much, but deliver, afaik, mainly that extra sec of stall..
mp_en_viaje: nfi what you mean by "impedance mathc" either, it's an unusefully high level concept for this convo. if fs-is-my-cache and apache-workers items as they exist match your impedance, then yes it does. if they do not, then no it does not.
mp_en_viaje: but yes, this is the problem -- until and unless one ends up understanding how apache config works, one will not like it.
mp_en_viaje: (contrary to what naive nugget might be imagining, implementing threading on linux is not trivial ; and not even necessarily replicable by now.)
mp_en_viaje: you're approximately the equivalent of that one guy nobody heard of from the manhattan project who decided early on to re-design cars because his window crane nubbin kept falling off. "dude, they already have cars" "yes but they're not right" "we're doing something ELSE here!" "i can't get there, my car's window's nubbin keeps falling off"
asciilifeform: i don't presently know why mp_en_viaje makes special pleading for apache et al to exempt'em from 'software is univerally shite'
mp_en_viaje: symbolics never in ~its entire life~... actually fucking strike that. all of mit cs lab, ALL OF IT, from csail onwards, never had a tenth of the fucking engineering man-hours that went into turning a patchy server into apache.
mp_en_viaje: you're proposing to re-do all that to shave a second offa some webapp you misconfigured somewhere ? gimme a break, put 1/1000000 that much time into talking to internet randos about pizarro, get 1000000x the benefits.
asciilifeform: i suspect at this pt apache absorbed moar hrs than pyramid of cheops. and will welcome proof of 'yer hands grow out of arse, turn this-here knob and the 6s will become 0.2'.
mp_en_viaje: we're seriously talking some heavy duty 1e12 orders of dampening magnitude here, how to take a trillion and make a tenth of a cent
mp_en_viaje: asciilifeform, it's right there, comparable with fucking space race and yes, pyramid.
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: if yer happy to live with 'teletype' i'ma entirely happily leave it entirely alone
mp_en_viaje: where the fuck is the dozen people six months original discussion anyway
asciilifeform: ( i'd rather paint grass green, if have any say, than to continue fiddling the knobs )
mp_en_viaje: asciilifeform, ok so then, what's the problem with the obvious course : test some static html files, see if it has same problem, implement cache as discussed yest when time permits and be done with it.
mp_en_viaje: ad, la cual cosa motiva a la competencia entre las empresas de este sector por la captación de clientela, intentando diferenciarse ofreciendo alternativas, precios o agregados." rank imbeciles are simply denoting FAST MOVING Consumer Goods.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-13 15:10:34 BingoBoingo: Las empresas de consumo masivo aumentan sus precios hasta 15% y el Gobierno evalúa qué hacer con "Precios Esenciales" << Headline across the river
asciilifeform: pipe -- routinely gives sustained mb+/s, to my chair. but never before looked into what happens in 1st sec.
mp_en_viaje: no fucking inkiling of an idea in their ferrous craniums that the ~moving~ is the point, nfi what overheads are, yakyakywak about "nos todos" and "social class" and whatever nonsense.
asciilifeform: well 2 atm, snsa shop currently points to static 'sold out' pg.
mp_en_viaje: fucking circus ropeshow you got going there...
asciilifeform: i have 1 piz box. wouldja rathet have no logger ? or 'circus'
mp_en_viaje: also stating ftr : if /me had designed this, it'd have been one single apache server, handling directories into which various cron-run pythons vomited whatever. not even port binding, comms through fs.
mp_en_viaje: dispose with flask dependency and all that.
mp_en_viaje: Flask is a lightweight WSGI web application framework. It is designed to make getting started quick and easy, with the ability to scale up to complex applications. It began as a simple wrapper around Werkzeug and Jinja and has become one of the most popular Python web application frameworks." << really makes me want to be sober, reading that thing.
mp_en_viaje: who wouldn;t want simple wrappers around werkjij and zeugya.
mp_en_viaje: or wait, i got them wrong didn't i. kunstjig and zugkammer ?
mp_en_viaje: since i exhausted him, i will now bark into the ethers (until someone wakes up), in the form of the following consumer computing likbez that we can all discuss once everyone else is sober -- im having second thoughts as to whether i ever want to be sober again.
mp_en_viaje: so, the only reason linux exists, let me restate that actually : THE ONLY FUCKING REASON LINUX EXISTS is the sheer coincidence that people got the lamp stack (read : linux, apache, mysql, php) going just in time for the september that never ended fallout.
mp_en_viaje: without this, all of linux (and all of the SMALLER foss, which piggy-backs on it, and always has, and always would have and forever would have had ; and certainly all of the even smaller and insignificant if more [http://trilema.com/2019/burn-after-reading/][organisedly-stupid] GNU) would have forever stayed the exact equivalent of an obscure gentoo repackaging three kids maintain for purely self-actualisation & escapist reasons. [http://trilema.
mp_en_viaje: com/2014/the-perfect-pitch/][point in case example].
mp_en_viaje: i am aware various sysadmin-y folks flatter themselves that "something unixlike'd have existed anyway for our terminal&cmdline needs". this is utterly false, they'd have been clucking at GUI interfaces exactly like the medical profession / barristas everywhere, and been thankful when .jar finally rolled around.
snsabot: Logged on 2018-11-27 16:37:59 mircea_popescu: gnu managed to drive directx into the ground, on the strength of naive if well meaning contributors, and then managed to give the advantage back to windows, and snatch defeat from the very jaws of victory, on the strength of imbecile management.
mp_en_viaje: so, not to put too fine a point on it : i really don't give so much of a shit what peculiar buttdildos you use in your own special universe to make yourself feel "different from the rest", "poetic", "not understood" and whatever other such highschooler personal investments. the fact of the matter is, linux exists for and through and by and because apache, mysql, and the glue gluing these together : php. that's what it is, that's what it's for, th
mp_en_viaje: at's the doctrine and the standard solution and the "werkzeug"/kunstkammer of it.
mp_en_viaje: i don't give a shit what you tell the orcs back home, or your crying inner 6yo at night or anything else -- buy the ticket, take the ride.
mp_en_viaje: yes, there's alternatives. of course there are. you don't have to coca cola, there's also pepsi. you like postgres more than mysql, well the fuck done, use that then. it'll be still used as an M in LAMP. because that's what the damned thing is, "flexibility" my ass.
mp_en_viaje: the fucking design of ~everything~ linux is always the same, and always this. divergence from this is neither clever nor ever functional, it'll always reduce to "i'm running LPyFFF because I don't understand why F has to come before the alt-P".
mp_en_viaje: yes, you can use "flask" instead of apache. it's shitty, they know is shitty, the reason they "dont recommend" you put it naked on #80 is precisely that they know it's shit.
mp_en_viaje: linux-server-database-scriptglue. that's what it's gonna be. call them what you will, but try and remember : buying "alternatives" doesn't make you alternative. i buy rope from the rope store and server from the apache store because i don't wanna pay 5x for shittier rope bought at the "special bdsm store". it dun do nothing for me.
mp_en_viaje: python/perl/whatever are not "better php". they might be more comfortable php, which is exactly like "i feel weird buying condoms otc, i really need a brown paper bag". fine, whatever works for you. don't tell me though stories about "the really cool store with the really better condoms". they're not better just because the clerk awkwardness-matches you and the SAME EXACT fmcg offering is proffered in an extra brown paper wrapper.
mp_en_viaje: and this nonsense then drives and is driven by the typically ustardian mode of failure, "we'll be rich by doing each other's laundry" "service economy" answer to the exact problem of argentina discussed above is then manifested in the "we'll just wrap everything in wrapping wrappy wrapers" "tech"/"innovation"/"entrepreneurial" nonsense.
mp_en_viaje: it's your knife, covered in some waste of your tin foil.
mp_en_viaje: then they're going to implement apache in php, because totally, this ~can~ be done. then they're going to have a lightweight apache to run their php and you're welcome to a) attempt to start three "servers" of this nonsense and b) wonder about the impedance mismatches.
mp_en_viaje: yet ~the thing that runs python~ is already apache. definitionally. it's a broken half-way implementation of apache, but this doesn't make it either lighter or better or faster or anything. doing half the job ain't being "agile", it's being costly in a hidden manner : someone somewhere downstream will have to implement what you left out at the proper level, and it'll be more expensive then.
mp_en_viaje: i get it, the concept grates, "but mp, i could design so much better systems" no you couldn't. the linux thing was successful ~coincidentally~. a space of possibilities was explored, and this is what STUCK. you can't design a better pile of nonsense for the exact reason you can't design a better elephant trunk : it wasn't fucking designed! it's what stuck!
mp_en_viaje: yes, i'm aware, if you made the giraffe it wouldn't have the laryngeal branch of the vagus go a mile around the heart. whopee for you, but do you know what ? galen was fucking aware this is happening in people too! it's called ~recurrent~ because it goes away and comes back, this is the case in all fucking mammals, equally "for no reason".
mp_en_viaje: so, to conclude the whole discussion : designing-improvements-on-selected-systems might be the lulziest impedance mismatch of them all. the prime directive of the engineer is to first become aware of the selected portions of his environment, and then take care around them. yes, you can design things -- but only in well understood contexts. part of that understanding, ~central~ part of that understanding is awareness of the selected portions, what
mp_en_viaje: drove the selection, how it drove it, etcetera.
asciilifeform: and from certain pov (e.g. scrap dealer's, who only melts it down) all the rusty carcasses in junkyard are ~exactlysame. but from pov of the folx who go in when mp_en_viaje asks 'build a tank by mid august' -- not quite same.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-14 03:47:31 mp_en_viaje: i get it, the concept grates, "but mp, i could design so much better systems" no you couldn't. the linux thing was successful ~coincidentally~. a space of possibilities was explored, and this is what STUCK. you can't design a better pile of nonsense for the exact reason you can't design a better elephant trunk : it wasn't fucking designed! it's what stuck!
mp_en_viaje: so the idea is, somehow a better use for linux will be found ?
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-14 03:13:51 mp_en_viaje: i am aware various sysadmin-y folks flatter themselves that "something unixlike'd have existed anyway for our terminal&cmdline needs". this is utterly false, they'd have been clucking at GUI interfaces exactly like the medical profession / barristas everywhere, and been thankful when .jar finally rolled around.
asciilifeform: the capitalist of 1900 and the bureaucrat of 2000 have entirely common interest in deskilling ( skilled labour is poison , from pov of either ) and the underlying parts , whether computer or lathe or whatever, dun particularly matter, same pressure
asciilifeform: both, however, occasionally forced to make 'unprincipled exception', cuz the set of what can be done by deskilled monkey with 'cluck' tool is never 100% .
mp_en_viaje: this is also true, as a broad trend. it is unfortunate but true that the inept king prefers crossbowmen over archers, because archers take lifetime to train and dedication from puberty to craft, whereas crossbow can be operated by... outsourced labour. it takes a certain sort of short-sightedness to not notice the implicit band-of-brothers vs [http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2018-07-12#1833989][your own nobles cutting down your own mercs]
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-14 03:21:21 mp_en_viaje: so, not to put too fine a point on it : i really don't give so much of a shit what peculiar buttdildos you use in your own special universe to make yourself feel "different from the rest", "poetic", "not understood" and whatever other such highschooler personal investments. the fact of the matter is, linux exists for and through and by and because apache, mysql, and the glue gluing these together : php. that's wha
mp_en_viaje: note that it does not start 1900. present and attested 1346
mp_en_viaje: asciilifeform, what about the hotmail purchase ?
asciilifeform: when 'let's run it on microshit' and had to backpedal
mp_en_viaje: i'm hanging out with chicks yest, "oh, websites are dead" "what do you do if facebook decides one day fire refereences forbidden on its platform ?" "uhhh
asciilifeform: asciilifeform's model is, linux grew briefly in '90s exactly like tree seedling briefly grows through pavement crack. but in the end the tar pot and the roller do come, crack is sealed.
mp_en_viaje: i don't even disagree with the broad model.
asciilifeform: but to take this angle further -- it could have easily grown ( just as briefly, or longer, no one can know ) through ~different~ crack. if were not for www fad, could easily know linux today as 'that thing weird greybeards use for cnc-ing submarine propellers'
asciilifeform: asciilifeform has somewhat atypical ( and to mp_en_viaje , grating ) pov re linux because was never wwwist (until voluntarily fell on this grenade for tmsr work) , instead earned bread for yrs on such things as ~non networked~ linux boxen where crunched numbers, drove eldritch machinery, etc
asciilifeform: diff crack, in different place, in pavement , than early www .
mp_en_viaje: but it didn't! is the important point. yes giraffe could have had trunk and elephant wings. COULD HAVE. DID NOT. major diff.
asciilifeform: to pile on the upstack thrd tho : lamp, as i see it, was linux's great ~calamity~. w/out rise of www, linux (or, moar likely, the bsd's) would have stayed small, obscure ( like many of the other systems asciilifeform worked with , that actually work and mp_en_viaje never heard of, or heard of strictly in 'facebookized' variants ) but... working. i.e. remained a green shoot in the pavement, for however long .
mp_en_viaje: either that or he'd have gotten bored of it about the same time as he did irl, and dropped in the drawer.
asciilifeform: well linux in particular, as perpetrated by the finn, would almost certainly have stopped at the 'bored'
mp_en_viaje: this is the problem with systems that don't scale : yes, if your airplane can't take off, not attempting to take of is "wise".
mp_en_viaje: but an item that is premised on not attempting to take off is not airplane/
asciilifeform: but reactor would quietly run vms ( as incidentally they still do ) on vax.
asciilifeform: 1970s-era string-munging lang ~to this day~ used for medical db. runs on e.g. old ibm gear. look at it some time, will have nightmare. ( can 'redefine number 4' and so forth, and not only ~can~ but sometimes ~must~ ) but there it is , still in use.
asciilifeform: [https://archive.is/wZLRt][somewhat retarded heathen 'threat or menace' piece re subj, for anyone interested.] difficult actually to find detailed material on the net re this item, i orig. encountered it by chance, deep in the salt mines, in person.
asciilifeform: this is actually typical of the 'trees in pavement', many/most have minimal net exposure. survival adaptation.
mp_en_viaje: well, no/minimal net exposure also became very easy to achieve these days.
asciilifeform: consider gnat. why is it that its corpse had usable organs in it when we dug up.
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: if i find a piece by actual human being on subj, will post.
asciilifeform: ( and , lol, then 'mumps' will be overrun and die in 3-5 yrs and the old men will go, some to 'cluck' at ms sql , others to bottle )
mp_en_viaje: i dunno about wwwtards! redditards i can see, but in the period between 93 and say digg days as the end, up to about 2010, having a website was rather a promise of sanity.
asciilifeform: rright, back when this required proficiency with the seed-in-pavement-of-the-day
asciilifeform: then -- the flood of 'driven not even by greed, but sheer ~need~' described by naggum.
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje had a piece ( where is it, grr ) where '1) actual people make a thing 2) herd finds it 3) herd 'also wants' 4) herd 'regulates', 'manages' 5) actual-people pack it ...' etc
asciilifeform: asciilifeform was drawn into bitcoin (specifically as portrayed by mp_en_viaje ; was never in the tardstalk forum , and [in fact quite cold to the subj][http://www.loper-os.org/?p=939] until encountered mp_en_viaje ) specifically because appeared, to asciilifeform , to be the 1st known instance of a successful defense against the 1-5 rot progression .
asciilifeform: 'Some people make new stuff... The herd gathers round the new item... The herd proceeds to interact with the new item... The fallen... come forth to "lead" the herd, to create "rules" for "the betterment" of the herd... The people continue to make their things exactly as they feel like... The herd moos happily'
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-14 03:28:54 mp_en_viaje: linux-server-database-scriptglue. that's what it's gonna be. call them what you will, but try and remember : buying "alternatives" doesn't make you alternative. i buy rope from the rope store and server from the apache store because i don't wanna pay 5x for shittier rope bought at the "special bdsm store". it dun do nothing for me.
mp_en_viaje: asciilifeform, btw, nice footer. i wonder how useful the random shooter will turn out
mp_en_viaje: billymg, i guess im stuck doing this, huh.
asciilifeform: here's another somewhat obscure example of the progression. recall in 1990s there were 9000 makers of pocket comps ? the kind could pull out on train and type into. all but 1 such, ended up in thralldom to microshit, and packaged (in rom!) winblowz 'ce', abominable liquishit, but somehow '100% market dominant'. the 1 holdout was a brit outfit, 'psion' . i have 1 here in torture room, it has better responsiveness than most pc ! the re
asciilifeform: st -- you can prolly predict. bought, turned into 'symbian', destroyed by idjicy.
asciilifeform: thing ran on 1 of the 1st mass prod. 'arm' cpu, also. and y'know the rest of what happened to those.
asciilifeform: there's no shortage of stories like this, they all begin and end in exactly same way, 'seen 1, seen'em all'
asciilifeform: ( on rare occasions, ends instead like bolix. but arguably similar enuff, fella who dies of heat and the other who -- of cold, still just as dead in the end)
asciilifeform: well guesswat. surrounded by microshit (with crapple as hand-puppet) lymphocytes, digested, shat out.
asciilifeform: today lives in kunstkammer with the other abortusen
asciilifeform: when 'be' was alive, could in fact edit film on (1990s! era) pc ! instead of on dedicated tape decks. as caught on only decade later, when microshit deemed it possible on their i-cant-believe-its-not-os
billymg: mp_en_viaje: in theory we could write the tools that do what the heathen stack does, but i honestly think, given the intended purpose, it makes more sense to temporarily use them and then discard
mp_en_viaje: asciilifeform, nb article, i had even forgotten it!
mp_en_viaje: billymg, im actually working on a universal blog spec. it atm looks like
asciilifeform: oh iknow, saw 9000 times. can see anywhere. consider crapple's $100 cables .
mp_en_viaje: most of my implements started life as... pet toys, at pet store. all sorta silicone beaters, ball launchers that are epic for hurt and so on
asciilifeform: i recall a mp_en_viaje piece where explained which parts of vacuum cleaner are best for this
mp_en_viaje: some things, such as machined steel buttplugs, yes. some other things, holy hell no, shitty handcuffs with plastifur hotglued on sorta-kinda ?!
asciilifeform: there was a 1990s piece re how chumps walk into ameri-'hardware store' and buy 'contractor-grade!111' plasti-tools that fall apart after 5 uses
asciilifeform: read this 20y ago. and then 1 day found shop where ~actual~ industrial tooling sold. no flashing neons, in fact is unmarked hole in abandoned-looking warehouse, entirely disappears when the place is closed and the burglar grille is down. and open only 2d/wk. there -- can buy, sans plastic, actual e.g. pneumatic hammers etc.
asciilifeform: former -- 'success', a la 'lamp. latter -- 'failure', i guess
snsabot: Logged on 2016-06-19 23:21:04 mircea_popescu: I myself used a Hole Hawg to drill many holes through studs, which it did as a blender chops cabbage. I also used it to cut a few six-inch-diameter holes through an old lath-and-plaster ceiling. I chucked in a new hole saw, went up to the second story, reached down between the newly installed floor joists, and began to cut through the first-floor ceiling below. Where my homeowner's drill had labored and whined
mp_en_viaje: yes, it will fuck log references, which is why you must not lose lines.
asciilifeform: bot ate 100% of phf's log in testing phase w/out losing lines. but lobbes in fact discovered uniturds that break py's eater. i'ma implement the fix described by phf , but the q will remain re what, if anyffin, to do re the in-between.
asciilifeform: ( they 'broke eater' in the sense that lobbesbot's emission was not logged; bot did not fall down and lose other lines , note. )
mp_en_viaje: there's no in between. logger must reflect channel. that's what it does.
asciilifeform: well the lines from yest. lobesbot , until when i have the fix tested & deployed.
asciilifeform: these are complete other than the uniturd-containing emissions by lobbesbot. but result is that the numeration has diverged. ( we already discussed q of whether such divergence is 100% preventable in light of fleanode, tho , but inconclusively )
asciilifeform: if anyone thought 'hey asciilifeform can do in 5 days what phf did in 1yr' -- this is naive.
mp_en_viaje: also neither here nor there. fix it, and then fix the references.
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: 'fix the refs' as in, modify stored lines ?
asciilifeform: then will diverge also vs all other logs (incl. folxs' local logs)
asciilifeform: this horror aint even rare exception, but as i understand has happened to each logger to date when 1) bot fell 2) folx continued to speak 3) bot stood up . i'd like to devise a deterministic algo for wat-do in such cases, they will repeat for so long as we inhabit fleanode
asciilifeform: and (contrary to what some may thing) asciilifeform is not awake 24/7 at console to turn the crank immediately
mp_en_viaje: if i really manage to make the damn thing fit in a deck fo cards ima celebrate.
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: re the log indices, there's a deeper q, that i'd like to lay out and ask mp_en_viaje to actually take halfhr+ to think about, with brain in full throttle, before answering, cuz it is very easy to spec this in such a way that asciilifeform's (or anyone's) pair of hands will not in fact be long enuff or fast enuff to handle
asciilifeform: consider, erry prev. log operator has gone mad. i suspect that know why.
asciilifeform: the other side of this, is q of 'what is canonical log' . i.e. is it mp_en_viaje's terminal (runs for 3-4 hrs / d ? and where did not even notice index off, asciilifeform had to notice and ring alarm ) ? asciilifeform's term ? (runs 24/7, but down for maybe 10min / yr ) ? or dulap 's ?
asciilifeform: this risks replay of 'clocks' flamewar, but at some pt gotta say 'this-here is canonical log'.
asciilifeform: would notice ? and what to do, when noticed, whose copy is 'it' ?
mp_en_viaje: now consider this matter from the other pov.
asciilifeform: ideally 'canonical' log imho would live in the rack under mp_en_viaje's throne. is how historically this sorta thing worx
mp_en_viaje: this being not theoretical wank but actual lived history.
asciilifeform: afaik the only extant sys which solved w/out 'rack in throne' is bitcoin.
mp_en_viaje: for long time mp was always-on, ran private multiple redundant loggers, etc. then mp went traveling, explicitly.
mp_en_viaje: and in month 4 or so of this traveling, where in other words mp was relying on other people to establish for him what is log, mp threw up because could not obtain a copy he could trust to scream at mod6 on good basis rather than on weak basis.
mp_en_viaje: this is what precipitated the aug 2 darkness.
mp_en_viaje: now -- i did not do this because i was bored or lacking for activity. i did it because imo it's very constructive.
mp_en_viaje: i do not believe such a thing as ~a~ cannonical copy may exist.
mp_en_viaje: the costs to defend / benefits to attack mount exponentially, it is not a stable design.
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: i'm not about to make argument 'eh i have drinking to do , rather than sync logs'. but if it takes fleanode 100msec to make a split, and asciilifeform -- 5min to fix it, this is not tenable to maintain promise of 'ultimate log'
mp_en_viaje: asciilifeform, in principle, yes. historically i kept discouraging you personally from making logger because to my (admittedly -- naive) mind it was task perfectly suited to ambitious youth
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: i'm not married to a particular set of junkyard wrecks out of what people to make loggers. but the solution has to be reasonably automatic, or e.g. asciilifeform for the rest of his days will be doing nuffin but munging db, and it ~still~ won't be satisfactorily correct
asciilifeform: atm logger is actually eating 100% of asciilifeform .
mp_en_viaje: but my reasoning is (and was, trhoughout), "well, let's see then"
asciilifeform: i'ma fix the uniturdism in coming days. and diddle the log as described by mp_en_viaje . but when next net split, or bot eventually falls (no one afaik has yet written/hosted bot that did not fall at least erry 6wks ) we will have to revisit the wat-do
asciilifeform: ideally by then can auto-sync from e.g. diana's bot in fortran
mp_en_viaje: i expect large portions of lobbesbot actually salvageable ; spyked was making a lisp one too iirc.
asciilifeform: i admit, i half-expected mp_en_viaje to pick up his skepter and declare 'this here is only working logger atm, and the breaking turd is a uniturd from bot, let errybody else lose the 6lines'
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-14 13:42:26 mp_en_viaje: asciilifeform, yes, but hard to like-phf when actually communicating things, on one hand. and on the other, hopefully multiple of these.
asciilifeform: presently i suspect that even three dedicated folx, working in shifts, could not reliably 'meat gossipd' 100%
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: no, i get. but i dun have a squad of people who will immediately report ' asciilifeform broke leg, is in ditch ' . have 1, who is trained to report -- if doesn't simultaneously break leg/neck with asciilifeform .
asciilifeform: what i also have, is long (and much backed up) queue of tmsr work that aint 'hand feed logger'
mp_en_viaje: and dun let the (understandable) anxiety of it eat your brain. we shall figure it out, on the basis of meeting it irl.
asciilifeform: i dun so much suffer from anxieties, but would like folx to know that currently asciilifeform built not proper wall, but the kind portrayed in mp_en_viaje's old ro piece where 'builder stands and holds up'
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-14 13:45:17 mp_en_viaje: asciilifeform, in principle, yes. historically i kept discouraging you personally from making logger because to my (admittedly -- naive) mind it was task perfectly suited to ambitious youth
asciilifeform actually found himself sitting to think, for hour+, before picking up the logger grenade
asciilifeform ended up with 'партия сказала надо -- комсомол ответил: есть!' but largely from lack of any apparent motion on front by other folx
asciilifeform: asciilifeform's logger intended moar as ice breaker ship, to make the subj navigable, than final solution. and 'final' -- as already detailed by mp_en_viaje -- would be a constellation of heterogeneous items that know how to speak a common sync, operated by diff people.
asciilifeform: ( and out of ~which~ fortrans people make'em -- php, focal, cobol, whatever -- is distinctly secondary q )
phf: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-14#1928700 << in general this hasn't happened to a111 (though i don't have full netsplit coverage, since that requires a bot per all the possible servers we are connected to), i've described the solution in logs, though i can't find it now. when a111 falls over, on reconnect it asks the znc machine to give it all the messages since the timestamp of last known message (+3 hours to
phf: accommodate drift). the messages are then merged into the log (i.e. i find the overlap of known messages, and then add the missing messages). since both znc and a111 tend to be fairly stable, the combination of the two provided adequate coverage
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-14 13:14:01 asciilifeform: this horror aint even rare exception, but as i understand has happened to each logger to date when 1) bot fell 2) folx continued to speak 3) bot stood up . i'd like to devise a deterministic algo for wat-do in such cases, they will repeat for so long as we inhabit fleanode
asciilifeform actually posted working coad for n-w . but, naturally, in CL..
phf: also znc is incidental, i have a trivial flask (or maybe "bottle") server that parses znc logs and gives the result out in the log-format
phf: this is basically the same as your special endpoint for giving out the 500 log messages
asciilifeform: right, assumed that phf meant 'znc' in abstract, i.e. any proggy that logs straight to txt , rather than concretely znc
asciilifeform: phf: at the risk of 'broken record', i gotta say that all of this would be 9000x moar helpful if existed as genesis , rather than asciilifeform to sit and derive from old logs and phf's summary, how was done.
asciilifeform: phf: my logbot genesis is some of the ugliest piece of shit yet put through 'v' . so dun be afraid to publish similar.
asciilifeform: in general folx oughta overcome this phobia. took me -- yrs. but gotta be done. piece of shit that was genesis'd -- can be fixed. whereas if not genesis'd, how can fix ?
asciilifeform: i genesised 5000ln+ of fucking asm!! last month. and scarcely expect that anyone will read, aside maybe from mp_en_viaje's gurlz as a punishment detail. but it has to be done.
phf: asciilifeform: well i gave you timeframe, it's easy for me to provide a few hints right now, significantly harder to unwrap a ball of yarn
snsabot: Logged on 2019-05-18 02:05:52 mp_en_viaje: because it takes a certain dose of insanity to think the equation you solved was the equation that was being presented. you recall that episone in married with children when christina applegate was saving cereal box K's to buy car ?
BingoBoingo: Forbes is Derping English about how "Argentina won't become Venezuela" even though Argentina is entering this crisis with even less to offer than Venezuela ever had (at least after burning mineral oils for energy became a thing).
snsabot: Logged on 2017-02-18 22:54:14 asciilifeform: (iirc we had a thread where i described how corporate ameritards, if given a problem like phuctor, would happily soak up a few $mil and megawatt of iron)