Logs for #trilema

Go to: #trilema #pizarro #asciilifeform #trilema-mod6 #chainstate #eulora

2019-3-13 | 2019-3-15

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1902184 << ludvig ? bavaria iirc , not austria
a111: Logged on 2019-03-13 22:44 mircea_popescu: (i also fail to hear these "cultured" fucktards explain how ~exactly the same~ was said of what now makes the glory of austria, that insane dood's palaces)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yeah.
asciilifeform: oh ha mircea_popescu already got there in http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1902186
a111: Logged on 2019-03-13 22:46 mircea_popescu: incidentally alf, ludwig 2 of bavaria is a fine example re this wot. one day decided to ditch his cabinet -- the cabinet decided it'd better ditch him first!!!
asciilifeform goes to eat whole thing rather than LL(1) parsing..
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1902033 << it is altogether dubious how "without communism". seems they got the worst parts of it, except for (notably) the name. but otherwise, consider ye recent gladstone discussion.
a111: Logged on 2019-03-13 21:18 asciilifeform: england industrialized 'minus communism' but , i'll observe , with quite similar methods , and similar misery
mircea_popescu: "We mean to value all the land in the kingdom Now, what is going to happen in the future? In future those landlords will have to contribute to the taxation of the country on the basis of the real value - only one halfpenny in the pound!"
mircea_popescu: ie, "land is no longer this thing the noble owns as his thing to own. land is now a sort of community chest, that the state owns, and maybe noble continues as its steward a while"
asciilifeform: gladstone ~century after the 'enclosures' etc, neh
mircea_popescu: this is not communism ? why, because islander fucktards gotta call everything by a "new" name ?
asciilifeform: sure is. but is 100+ y after the mills afaik
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform and cough is days after infection, what of it.
mircea_popescu: they ~still got it~, was the point.
asciilifeform: for all i know, 'errybody gets it' at some pt, like errybody dies.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1902031 << this, ftr, is very much true. rights for morons === disaster.
a111: Logged on 2019-03-13 21:17 asciilifeform: ~that~ goes straight to becoming an africa.
asciilifeform: contention was, they industrialized before communitardized
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform only because they communitardized in colonies first.
mircea_popescu: so could briefly pretend like every sheffield weaver's a sorta miniprince, on well hidden coolie labour with serials filed off.
mircea_popescu: considering the cost of the deception, and the ultimately negligible actual results...
asciilifeform: afaik that's the 'standard model' of the brit empire -- drained batteries of india, americas, etc, then ate own arse
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1902034 << they were a sought ally at the time, pretty much fucked the caer idea. difference now is they ~asked~ to be in eu.
a111: Logged on 2019-03-13 21:21 asciilifeform: going upstack to http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1902021 , oddly enuff per my reading ro ~was~ sovereign during post-stalin sovok. i.e. routinely pissed right in the mouth of e.g. hrusch, and got away scot-free
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1902039 << this was widely admired, whole "third way" 80s wank. i find the proposition dubious, in the sense that it strictly depends on the yugo ~people~ being a certain kind. just the right mix of crazy and dedicated. worked out terribly in 94 too.
a111: Logged on 2019-03-13 21:22 asciilifeform: ( tito -- imho genius, somehow pulled off 'communized heavy industry, but private biz for food etc' )
asciilifeform: i have nfi what sorta battery tito ran on
asciilifeform: but clearly ran out
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1902038 << this is not factually true. compare ceausescu's reaction to czech invasion with http://trilema.com/2009/a-fost-odata-cand-romania-a-avut-dreptate/ when basescu did ~same re ~same, invasion of serbia.
a111: Logged on 2019-03-13 21:22 diana_coman: I meant it lost its options really; and having an uppity peasant "rule" is not going to change that, only make it likely worse and longer
mircea_popescu: exact same case of fucktarded "washington press reps dinner" pantsuit meeting ro head, being laughed at. but in the former case gorby was still answering for it ; whereas in the latter i have yet to see the apologetics for ~the failure~.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the diff b/w 'then and nao' is that 'the west'(tm)(r) dun have a miami to decamp to. hence 'cream' stews in own juices, and no genuflections/'apologies'
trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1902047 << that's the kernel's own config process, and the "aborted" makes me think you pressed ctrl-c
a111: Logged on 2019-03-13 21:29 PeterL: trinque: so I am running the cuntoo build script, it seems to have stopped doing anything, the end of the build log http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/whbcf/?raw=true , not sure what to do next here?
asciilifeform: ( as how gorby genuflected for katyn shooting , gulag, etc , to earn his miami )
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1902044 << amusing episode, http://trilema.com/2010/intiiul-troll/#selection-45.0-45.113
a111: Logged on 2019-03-13 21:27 asciilifeform: as for the old shoemaker, admittedly i never wore a crown, but afaik folx who wear crowns do not have the option of saying 'we lost options'. sorta like the http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-31#1663960 thing.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1902246 << ~100% of the manhole covers on my street, have a 'made in india' text. 'leave it to india' worx a++ until india decides that erry fuckwad 'deserves' own country house and sinecure and etc. and soon enuff you have a http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-14#1902304
a111: Logged on 2019-03-13 23:27 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1902001 << the problematic things here are miniaturization and technologization. there's relatively little need or use for the sort of "factory" as displayed in 1950s italian films. and besides, india can have those.
a111: Logged on 2019-03-14 00:07 mircea_popescu: so could briefly pretend like every sheffield weaver's a sorta miniprince, on well hidden coolie labour with serials filed off.
mircea_popescu: nah. i could start steel production in a week, if need be.
asciilifeform: lol iirc mao also said
mircea_popescu: india can't start mpex production in a millenium, though. and even simpler things -- notice how much fucking work all sorta things we do take us.
asciilifeform: that iirc was the ameritards' notion also, 'let the untermenschen make tractors, we'll make nasdaq' neh
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1902058 << well, they'd have to get new land grants.
a111: Logged on 2019-03-13 21:41 asciilifeform: i wonder whether usg even bothers to ask ro 'democratic' apparatus when it feels like moving the 'aegis' batteries from place to place
asciilifeform: how well it went ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform and yet we dont make our own shoes.
asciilifeform: asciilifeform is ~this close~ to 'make own shoes'
mircea_popescu: not because of some sort of deviousness though. just sheer decay, morons resplendent.
asciilifeform: rright. but gotta point out, 'let'em make the basics, we'll make mpexes and fermat's theorems' dunwork if taken entirely literally.
asciilifeform: in sane planet, i could walk into a shop and have motherfucking pcb xrayed for fivebux.
asciilifeform: and not (wtf!) have to buy the gear.
asciilifeform: ( mircea_popescu , observe, does not have to buy bulldozer. not even in argentina are people fucked enuff in the head to ask MOAR for lease of bulldozer, genset, etc than to BUY )
mircea_popescu: myeah.
asciilifeform: recall : the xray best-quote of 5 firms was : 2700 orcdubloons PER SHOT
asciilifeform: microscopist : 24K.
asciilifeform: 24K , ftr, buys ~tabletop~ electron mic.
asciilifeform: with warranty.
asciilifeform: nao, it ~is~ possible that i'ma rube. and somewhere there's a seekrit base of not-retarded people.
asciilifeform: but i aint found it yet.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1902140 << the crowd of very similar 'pippidi' bashing sovok, always makes sure to compare hruscheba to manhattan penthouse, and not to the dirt floor hut 90% of ru lived in pre-sovok
a111: Logged on 2019-03-13 22:27 mircea_popescu: or a hruscheba, or w/e the fuck they call it. makes entirely no difference, for the vast majority of the population of romania at the time had never lived in paved dwellings.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1902207 << asciilifeform served 10 yrs of time in ameri-school. 0 mention of e.g. twain.
a111: Logged on 2019-03-13 22:59 diana_coman: quite; there was a bit of an anger moment when I realised that in school they never even *mentioned* those writings of Caragiale, let alone study them
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1902248 << sadly must point out , that the places where the active components made, dwarf any sovok tractor plant
a111: Logged on 2019-03-13 23:28 mircea_popescu: eg, s.nsa is more of a factory, in objective terms, than tractorul brasov ever was or could have been. it's what it is, these days "factory" is complex item.
asciilifeform: not only in floor space, but cost , in any unit one might care to price in
asciilifeform: i dun have a fab in my kitchen, i promise that would say if i did
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1902255 << i find it increasingly harder to avoid the thought that computing is going down to bottom of the sea unless and until we fab
a111: Logged on 2019-03-13 23:32 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1902010 << fucking precisely. watching #trilema from a distance, with imbecile "skepticism" is not a free option. should it fail, there goes computing, and generally speaking this is the one chance this century.
mircea_popescu: yeah well.
asciilifeform: ( does mircea_popescu find idea of 20yrs of chasing down x86 glitches appealing perspective ? )
mircea_popescu: there's a ready stream of distractions available to distract thre willing from the much plainer and closer to nose fact that we'll go to bottom of the sea if we don't, eg, manage to get pizarro going properly. etc.
asciilifeform: no shortage of these
asciilifeform: luckily we have mircea_popescu to give clue re in what order to bucket water from the flooded compartments
mircea_popescu: but yes, i'm sure eventually we'll fab.
mircea_popescu: whether in city or behind autofiring turret line, still open q.
asciilifeform: ( consider, sovok faced much simpler problem, when ~it~ resorted to fab -- that amerireich ~wouldn't sell'em~ the goodstuff. today, can't even ~buy~ the goodstuff if yer sultan of brunei )
asciilifeform: it aint there, to be bought.
mircea_popescu: idiots invaded wrong czech.
asciilifeform: where's 'right czech'
mircea_popescu: where the good stuff is.
asciilifeform: the punchline is that in 1968 sovok was ~slightly ahead~ in ic.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-12-01#1877419 << see also.
a111: Logged on 2018-12-01 20:39 asciilifeform: ( who even into '70s persisted in a belief that there's 'amazing su tech' worth fishing out of e.g. sunken su sub , with howard hughes' mega-boat )
asciilifeform: they raised the boat btw , and found the ics. i have some of them ( well, not them, but same type ) here. pretty interesting item, moar like ultra-miniaturized smt pcb than what modern folx think of as 'ic'
asciilifeform: meanwhile in wikitardism : https://archive.is/spATf << behold , the diagrams all labeled in ru
asciilifeform: i wonder from where stole
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> ( mircea_popescu , observe, does not have to buy bulldozer. not even in argentina are people fucked enuff in the head to ask MOAR for lease of bulldozer, genset, etc than to BUY ) << And the caterpillar store here neither sells nor rents earthmoving equipment, instead sells girls outdoor fashions
feedbot: http://bingology.net/2019/03/14/more-future-sight-in-the-southern-cone/ << Bingology - BingoBoingo's Blog -- More Future Sight In The Southern Cone
asciilifeform: in other noose,
asciilifeform: !A help
mircea_popescu: in other news, these diana_coman compilation notes are just sad. wtf is wrong with people, "portable" and "support" seem to only support fucking nonsense, and quite selectively at that.
asciilifeform: err,
asciilifeform: !!up pehbot
deedbot: pehbot voiced for 30 minutes.
asciilifeform: !A help
pehbot: asciilifeform: I am PehBot. My Width is currently fixed to 256, Height to 32, Tape to 300, Life to 150.
asciilifeform: !A .5:[Foo].1-",_
pehbot: asciilifeform: FooFooFooFooFoo
asciilifeform: !A .5:[Foo].3:[Bar].1-",_.1-",_
pehbot: asciilifeform: FooBarBarBarFooBarBarBarFooBarBarBarFoo
asciilifeform: !A :[Ho];
pehbot: asciilifeform: HoHoHoHoHoHoHoHoHoHoHoHoHoHoHoHoHoHoHoHoHoHoHoHoHo
asciilifeform: ^ exercise for reader.
asciilifeform bbl,meat
mircea_popescu: diana_coman explain http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-11#1901356 to me. so there's http://ossasepia.com/2018/02/15/eucrypt-chapter-10-oaep-with-keccak-a-la-tmsr/#selection-37.1-37.47 ; now why isn't it usable for v ? i'm missing something here.
a111: Logged on 2019-03-11 10:01 diana_coman: mircea_popescu, in short, the keccak spec in its current form really since it considers input at bit-level and then goes on to mess about with some assumptions at bit-level and some at octet-level and making a lot of confusion without any good reason e.g. http://ossasepia.com/2018/02/08/eucrypt-chapter-9-byte-order-and-bit-disorder-in-keccak/#selection-55.383-63.563 ; one needs to disentangle that and put it in
mod6: Cool: 02:43 -!- Welcome to the TMSR Internet Relay Chat Network mod6
mod6: Got a ratbox setup, gonna need to do some testing
mod6: irc.mod6.net / #trilema if you wanna join up and test
mod6: or 108.61.199.188
trinque: neato, I'm there
mod6: forwarn: just noticed that the nick maxlen is 9. I'll have to recompile, probably tomorrow.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: that yang link is hilarious : wtf does 1000 orcdubloons even buy
trinque: ample weed and cheezburg, what
asciilifeform: mod6: congrats, neato, i'ma try it when i wake
asciilifeform: trinque: a month or 2 of it, neh, then wat
asciilifeform: apparently these folx want to try out ye olde sovok 'voucher' experience on own skin
asciilifeform: ( helps that they're entirely innocent of reading, sovok may as well have happened on mars as they're concerned , i suspect )
trinque: afaik the derp's talking about UBI, not a one-shot payment
asciilifeform: 'hey kid? yer rent was 700? guesswat, ~this~ month you owe 1700'
mod6: asciilifeform: cool, no rush or anything. it's gonna be some effort to get it all shined up and ready.
asciilifeform: trinque: ok modify then, 'from nao on 1700'
trinque: sure, who's thinking.
asciilifeform: this kinda thing imho crosses some line even for tards
asciilifeform: it's fingers-in-mains-socket level of stupid
BingoBoingo: What rent? They live in multgenerational households, Latin style
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: so mother gets a 'yer rent was... you have 2 reddit sons ? guess what, nao x + 2000'
asciilifeform: big fat diff
BingoBoingo: Nah, mom or grandma has mortgage
asciilifeform: ( and not necessarily immediately or as compactly as in this didactic example, but sure enuff, sheep will be shorn )
trinque: nobody is thinking about any of this, and of course.
BingoBoingo: Anyways 1000 dollars in 2021 may as well be 1000 pesos in 2019
BingoBoingo: Sure they will all find a way to get captured
asciilifeform: in the linked piece, pic of some (presumably nao old) d00d when young, and 'his tuition was 400'. takes all of 5sec to think out why his 400 and herr redditard's is 40000
asciilifeform: this aint exactly fermat-grade problem
BingoBoingo: Hey, I can still get 5kg of "picada de novillo" for just under 1000 pesos
BingoBoingo: I dunno what the US substitute costs in USD atm, but...
mircea_popescu: nice mod6
jurov: !!v B391E386C09327CA31AB9ECB3124A3A901EE12C7287426E54452EBBEB661EE65
deedbot: jurov paid BingoBoingo invoice 9
diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-14#1902392 -> it is usable and it is used; that doesn't make it 100% byte-level as it'd be ideal; if it's still not clear what part/why, I'll have to load it back in head to give more detailed answer.
a111: Logged on 2019-03-14 01:55 mircea_popescu: diana_coman explain http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-11#1901356 to me. so there's http://ossasepia.com/2018/02/15/eucrypt-chapter-10-oaep-with-keccak-a-la-tmsr/#selection-37.1-37.47 ; now why isn't it usable for v ? i'm missing something here.
diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1902276 -> kind of weird in the light of the very real and directly experienced http://trilema.com/2014/the-problem-of-ideal-social-systems-reprint/
a111: Logged on 2019-03-13 23:57 mircea_popescu: even though economy had ~died, the 70s east cultural clock still synchronized a lot closer to reality than the 70s west cultural clock.
diana_coman: but anyway, to wind up the thread, the idea seems to be that "yes, it inevitably sucked and moreover it failed on both directions http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1902282 but nevertheless it was the best thing available at the time; and ftr having studied at polytechnica university may perhaps (no idea) be better than mit at that time (not now, then, hence no idea) but it wasn't much study, no.
a111: Logged on 2019-03-13 23:59 mircea_popescu: as it happens, in warsaw pact function #1 failed ~mid 70s, and function #2 failed [http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-22#1816502][~mid 80s].
diana_coman: it's still back to the measuring by the bottom part as far as I can see.
spyked: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1901715 <-- this spawned a mega-thread that I'm still digesting, ftr. will make for great re-read over the weekend, and re-re-read later on
a111: Logged on 2019-03-13 13:19 asciilifeform: spyked: seems like the joke is on the folx who shot the shoemaker , who ~maybe~-sent police if he thought you had particular kind of bits on paper , and then spread legs for nato reich, who send police if they think you have ~another~ kind of bits, on yer hdd..
spyked: re the above, nato reich did not advertise that part in their brochures. I suppose the ones who previously waited "sa vina americanii" were very happy in 1990 because "can nao eat hot dog and hamburgers" (mcd wasn't even the first of its kind in ro)
diana_coman: further digesting the conclusion such as it is, it seems to me that the issue might be that it kept pretending it was working way beyond the point were it had clearly and obviously failed; and given the timings, this does quite rest entirely with ceausescu as far as I can tell - he couldn't let fail faster what had failed already, hence http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1902038
a111: Logged on 2019-03-13 21:22 diana_coman: I meant it lost its options really; and having an uppity peasant "rule" is not going to change that, only make it likely worse and longer
diana_coman: spyked, those who waited sa vina americanii were tired of waiting and died, in many cases rather precisely and explicitly so "tired of all this shit, had enough."
diana_coman: re 1990 I recall euphoria followed by a very cool shower on seeing same old faces (fsn) ; and then the 90s were the time of a big wave of running for canada iirc
diana_coman: presumably there again, there was one chance and it was rejected because ratiu hadn't eaten salam cu soia; but that's what if, no idea if again iliescu was presumably "the best available"
spyked: from discussions with ppl who were in their 20s-30s at the time, my understanding is that most folks had no idea what to expect from "new regime". they were being fed with "transition phase" and other similar buzzwords
diana_coman: eh, the older ones saw it clearly though because they had more experience with "schimbarea domnilor bucuria nebunilor"
diana_coman: sure, folks had no idea but that's the given at any time really
diana_coman: and at any rate, the new regime was the old regime since precisely known people
diana_coman: in this sense ceausescu was made the scapegoat, yes; i.e. "shooting him sorted out all the troubles, nao everything will be great"
diana_coman will go now back to keccak
spyked: diana_coman, I suspect this was mostly a case of "revision is well-received, but don't change anything"; which is why iliescu/fsn had so much support and average derp saw the taranisti as "way too mean" (no idea precisely what "mean" means, that's what I've been told)
spyked: anyway, re "ro mcd" http://archive.is/ZaFuF <-- lulz, for entomologists
spyked: specifically re "the wrong kind of bits on your hdd", I'm sure e.g. microshit had no problem with it, piracy is principally how windows got spread in eastern europe
spyked also bbl
mircea_popescu: so in re http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-10#1901233 : we finally got to the bottom of the matter, after no little amount of reading and headscratching (esp on my part). the problem isn't one of calling convention (as i had erroneously imagined originally, mostly on the basis of "keccak doesn't take / wants" verbiage).
a111: Logged on 2019-03-10 19:56 phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-10#1901200 << that is not at all the problem. i can read the file just fine, but as i do i feed chunks of it to keccak. keccak doesn't take char buffers, it wants "bitstream" i.e. arrays of bits, which means whatever char
mircea_popescu: the problem is this : as keccak is ineptly specced (by Bertoni & all), it uses amixedly both lsb and msb conventions, meaning that a bitstream of uneven octetness like "10110" can ~in principle~ end up padded into either the harmless "00010110" or the potentially harmful "10110000".
mircea_popescu: making sure this latter case never happens requires a little bit of needlework. the original implementations tried to keep close to the original spec, for basically naive and unexamined http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-02#1883944 reasons. as it turns out, this was the wrong cut.
a111: Logged on 2019-01-02 18:57 mircea_popescu: what's hilarious is the ever-present http://trilema.com/2017/global-warming-on-triton/#selection-154.0-157.103 whereby they'll imaginarily seat themselves in my seat and start spewing http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-04#1809349 slash assorted nonsense about "homebrew crypto" lalala.
mircea_popescu: as it's unclear from the logs whether phf actually has done this and not published it yet or not done it at all, diana_coman will release a third keccak, that should resolve both the above problem and the "everything is 8x because NIST idiots" thing blowing up vdiff's stack, hopefully later this week.
mircea_popescu: ~the end~
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-14#1902430 << well, "weird". they're both ideal social systems, they both have the same problems. they have it in different degrees, or rather, differently distributed. warsaw pact socialism was an ideal system closest to realism at the top and most idealized at the bottom. roosveltian socialism is an ideal system closest to realism at the bottom, and most idealized at the top. as i'm at the top
a111: Logged on 2019-03-14 07:34 diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1902276 -> kind of weird in the light of the very real and directly experienced http://trilema.com/2014/the-problem-of-ideal-social-systems-reprint/
mircea_popescu: , i very much prefer the former ; asciilifeform is expressing very similar preference for very similar reasons.
mircea_popescu: the proofs for this are many and plurious, but consider the simple fact that there's no censorship or repression of ideas in roosevelt's socialism.
mircea_popescu: why not ? ~obviously~ because thinking people ~can not even form useful ideas~ there. much like there's no jaywalking fines for the qadriplegic, and no blinding lights for they already blind.
mircea_popescu: i much prefer the tyrant who's afraid of thinking people to the tyrant who isn't, for the exactly obvious fucking reason.
diana_coman: thing is the "afraid of thinking people" directly translates into "thinking people get killed for *being thinking people*" and if you and asciilifeform say that that's swell and preferable to the alternative then ok; the way I see it, it's a recipe for disaster; which gets round back precisely to the "talking to the pigs" since there isn't anyone left
diana_coman: ftr I can easily get behind the observation that the difference of opinion here might simply stem from the fact that I wasn't at a the top in communism - no, I wasn't; and I wouldn't have made it to any top either precisely because of too much thinking.
diana_coman: or the wrong sort of thinking (tm)
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: upstack to the keccak -- 8x moar compact keccak is Right Thing, but still won't keep you from demolishing the stack if yer hashing GBs
asciilifeform: ( the pill is in the http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-10#1901193 thrd. but there's a gnat bug in the way )
a111: Logged on 2019-03-10 17:52 asciilifeform: so it will have to have the mmap routine.
asciilifeform: diana_coman: the reich where 'killed for being thinking people' is ~right here~. simply they dun do it with gulag, they do it much cheaper, by driving'em to drink
diana_coman: asciilifeform, eh, cheaper in the sense that in communism you don't even have what to drink or what; because otherwise plenty of that in there too
asciilifeform: ( i dunno if al schwartz drank, but may as well )
diana_coman: at any rate, I'm not saying that I find rooseveltian communism any better really, no
diana_coman: I find both of them equally horrid
asciilifeform: diana_coman: fwiw i see 0 diff b/w sovok 'top' and goldmansachs top , in re 'how much think' or any other interesting aspect
asciilifeform: exactly same people.
asciilifeform: ameri-sovok gives to the plebes slightly better panem et circenses , 'while supplies last'
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-14#1902451 << gates himself was quite explicit re this point : 'hooke'm 1st, then make'em pay'
a111: Logged on 2019-03-14 09:58 spyked: specifically re "the wrong kind of bits on your hdd", I'm sure e.g. microshit had no problem with it, piracy is principally how windows got spread in eastern europe
asciilifeform brb,tea
mircea_popescu: diana_coman well, it IS preferable to the alternative. certainly not swell, no, but who the hell can carry a conversation on communism in terms of swellness.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i can live with telling people "raise your stack limit for your file is large" ; i have a lot more trouble sleeping at night if i tell people "raise your stack limit for some idiots made a broken spec we did not fix."
mircea_popescu: diana_coman hey, i was fortunate! two generations working hard at the "think just enough --- NOT MORE!!!" so as to make it into "red bourgeoisie" (to use the polish term), which yeah i'd have totally fucked up when it came to be my turn except the regime fell before me like one of those magic cases of lion dieing of apoplexy just as five year old boy lifts his wooden sword at it. so now i can be distasted at their impossible
mircea_popescu: mental contortions, "what sort of people are these!!!" and so on.
diana_coman: I can see that.
mircea_popescu: it's a complex problem, though. the naive : "the difference between idiots and thinkers is that thinkers may opt to idiocy, but idiots may not opt to thinking", generally offered in disputes around "copyright" and other packaging of the grander theme of "ownership of ideal objects", nevertheless runs into the problem that thinkers DO NOT LIKE opting for idiocy.
mircea_popescu: (though adlai is commonly used here as the poster child for a perhaps spreading novel disease, where they manage to apparently convince themselves they do like, somehow.)
mircea_popescu: amusingly enough, this thing runs right into the institution of the harem (guess what alfie -- institution that DIDNT have all individuals leave!) because master's opting for idiocy is ~required~ on occasion. you can very much fail through being too reliably thinking, counterintuitively enough. or perhaps [http://trilema.com/2011/arta-pedepsirii/][not so counterintuitively].
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-14#1902434 << the fundamental problem with measuring anything is that either you pick good measurements (in which case -- you want good samples, in which case -- bottom always wins) or else you pick good results (in which case, discussion can continue endlessly as to ~what it is they mean~. there's no clear meaning to results, howsoever good they may be, absent a good measurement).
a111: Logged on 2019-03-14 07:40 diana_coman: it's still back to the measuring by the bottom part as far as I can see.
mircea_popescu: which pretty much summarizes 50 years' worth of "scholarship" on the topic of comparative theory of socialism, carried both in warsaw and roosevelt lands like it was going out of style.
mircea_popescu: correctly, too -- meanwhile it actually went out of style.
mircea_popescu: but, to add the one important bit : discussing communism is imo a red herring, and ESPECIALLY so if part of the other-socialism's sepia ink, "oh, how bad warsaw pact socialism was [http://trilema.com/2016/tight-science-loose-pseudoscience-and-a-warm-pot-to-piss-in-intellectually-speaking/#selection-73.0-77.39][little girl], aren't you glad you live in best possible socialism that's not like that at all [in any parts you're li
mircea_popescu: able to notice, or once noticed be able to communicate]"
mircea_popescu: might as well discuss the ill effects of coconut flavoured frozen yogurt upon one's metabolism, and how much weight we're losing by eating naught but vanilla flavoured frozen yogurt (made at the same plant by the same company out of exactly the same ingredients -- all the way to the flavouring, it's still processed wood shavings.)
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-14#1902438 << just like the other idiots. consider : if usg dissolved itself in 2001 instead of pretending to a "war" of imagination, people would have ~regretted~ it. but as it stubbornly carried on for another 20 years, it's just as heavily hated at the top as conceivable, and in another decade they'll be shot in the street retributively, for having been part of it at all.
a111: Logged on 2019-03-14 09:32 diana_coman: further digesting the conclusion such as it is, it seems to me that the issue might be that it kept pretending it was working way beyond the point were it had clearly and obviously failed; and given the timings, this does quite rest entirely with ceausescu as far as I can tell - he couldn't let fail faster what had failed already, hence http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1902038
mircea_popescu: much like had ro communism responded to czech invasion by free elections, ceausescu would be the #1 romanian saint, with more churches dedicated than mary & joseph combined. and much like had the byzantines and much like etcetera.
mircea_popescu: much like every single hostile divorce, too. people just don't know when to quit, is the overwhelming property of people.
mircea_popescu: what is so wrong with saying "these people hate us, because we suck, how about we try something else instead of sucking even harder ???"
mircea_popescu: but no, oh nonononono, gotta http://trilema.com/2012/in-general-evreii-trec-drept-oameni-destepti/ as hardcore as possible!
diana_coman: I suspect it's simply because most people don't actually have a "something else" ; hence shooting is at the end correct too since it's the only real quite.
diana_coman: quit.
mircea_popescu: but yes, ceausescu coming up on live tv and explaining that "look, you dweebs : we tried to imperialism so and so, this is what we did and why we did it, this is what happened, now we're fucked. what do you wanna do now ? figure it the fuck out." would have worked well.
mircea_popescu: he ~even had the right idea~, held fuycking referendum!
diana_coman: exactly; had he done that, great.
mircea_popescu: but see how hard it is to get the words right ? he held referendum over "paying debt", and "everyone voted. twice."
mircea_popescu: it was there though, both the conscience of the problem and the awarness of the right solution. just didn't manage to burble clean all the way through.
diana_coman: maybe.
mircea_popescu: part and parcel of the problem is that ~the very basis and fundament~ of a "[http://trilema.com/2015/why-representative-democracy-doesnt-work-and-doesnt-make-sense/][representative system]" is that THERE IS NO ONE THERE TO TALK TO. all the fucktarded jwzs long opted out, WHO you gonna explain what to and HOW ? in what terms ? in what words ?
diana_coman: "talking to the pigs" ; yes?
mircea_popescu: how do you break through the howl of idiocy ? i scream at the girls, and put them on their knees and whip them, and it works, kinda.
mircea_popescu: what's he gonna do, kneel a country ?
mircea_popescu: diana_coman quite. "viermi neadormiti", da' si nevorbitori.
diana_coman: well, if afraid of thinking people and then people got to think "just enough" then nowhere to turn when needing to talk to someone, inevitably
mircea_popescu: poor woman, bereft of letters. i always read it in THOSE terms, "if you can't think and can't use language, AT LEAST FUCKING SLEEP!!!"
mircea_popescu: diana_coman yet if you ask them, they were afraid not of thinking people in general -- but of the exact thing we [or whatever, i guess in limine just i] are affraid also : http://btcbase.org/log/2014-08-01#780595
a111: Logged on 2014-08-01 03:17 mircea_popescu: then various twerps derp about "upholding contracts" in mises.org, and when i call them too smart by half they nervously BUT ANONYMOUSLY address it
mircea_popescu: too smart by half, aka http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-18#1863577
a111: Logged on 2018-10-18 18:57 mircea_popescu: which i stand behind, ftr ; and it is also what informs the "if they had any sense -- they'd be here" stance. the fact that rando can't cut through fetlife to find the meat / can't cut through internet to find trilema / can't cut through femstate to find bitcoin / can't cut through pantsuitism to find republic etc specifically means that rando is dull, ie, not smart.
mircea_popescu: in ceausescu's own world, "too dumb to cut through imperialist-bourgeois nonsense to find marx & engels ---> dull"
mircea_popescu: what can you do ? in any possible systematic representation of the world you will have some criteria for "broken representations". this isn't avoidable, and "so just don't systematically, then" is no kind of answer.
mircea_popescu: yes, obviously it pays to be the top node, ie, to integrate everyone else's systems. hence all the "empire loses because we integrate it, can't even represent us" etc. nevertheless... this is fine and dandy until it isn't. and yes it'd be great if one had the fucking sense to NOTICE, but notice how eg cat-v.org morons FAILED to notice it's time to quit derping and start worshipping.
mircea_popescu: which yes, is the deep point of http://trilema.com/2017/in-scams-today-disk-less-terminal-sa-dba-laesquinadelamazmorra/#footnote_3_72501 ; and the reason that keeps getting linked -- that YES the only correct response to integration is moving over, and there's a time to do it well and then it'll just be more and more painful once that window closes. but NOTICING...
mircea_popescu: noticing's fucking hard, empirically.
mircea_popescu: meanwhile every organized system, no matter how organized as long as it provides for the economic & cultural #1 and #2 functions discussed, is going to be afraid of marauding idiocy. cuz that's what "barbarian" means, even.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: aha, consider hrusch's brief 'thaw' where for short time 'anyffin goes' and then suddenly 'stfu'
asciilifeform: it was quite similar thing. he was not prepared for what came out of the woodwork.
mircea_popescu: i couldn't argue well that it ~wasn't~ the same attempt.
mircea_popescu: anyway, kinda why the insistence on "republic is political -- you can't just do tech thing" etc. and why dual court-and-manor function of lord. and so on.
mircea_popescu: IF you dare separate these two, just as soon as something happens you're up sheet crick.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-14#1902463 << limonov had entire b00k on subj, with slightly different twist ( tldr : the 'free world' built 'disciplinary sanitarium' (his term) where ideas-dun-matter-even-if-you-somehow-come-across-one cuz they all get http://trilema.com/2015/on-how-the-factored-4096-rsa-keys-story-was-handled-and-what-it-means-to-you/ )
a111: Logged on 2019-03-14 14:14 mircea_popescu: the proofs for this are many and plurious, but consider the simple fact that there's no censorship or repression of ideas in roosevelt's socialism.
mircea_popescu: i never read it, but the summary makes sense.
asciilifeform looks, as does erry coupla yrs, 'does exist in translation?' -- finds, unsurprisingly, does not. at least not on the searchable net.
asciilifeform: mostly pops up as mention in anglotard derphistories of 'ru fascisms'
mircea_popescu shall have to go to town, on hour+ delayed trip, in preference of telling driver to turn off engine already. so catch you all later as bit!
asciilifeform: ( it's where e.g. http://btcbase.org/log/2014-06-15#719530 , http://btcbase.org/log/2014-03-21#573044 , http://btcbase.org/log/2014-03-21#573144 , elsewhere )
a111: Logged on 2014-06-15 02:28 asciilifeform: 'the Western blok... preferred to view the Eastern European nations as victims of Soviet aggression, ignoring the simple and manly fact (that would have been instantly understood by a Roman) that Soviet legions, without anyone's help, took possession of Eastern Europe via force of arms, answering aggression with aggression. And the Roman would an absurdity - he could not comprehend, in the name of what so-cal
a111: Logged on 2014-03-21 17:31 asciilifeform: 'Frightened of its own cannibalism during the First, and, moreover, the Second world wars. 'civilized' mankind dashed from the 'hard' to the 'soft' mode of violence. (The deciding factors: 1. the restraining influence of atomic weapons and 2. the advent of new technologies of production, which made possible an overfeeding of the masses.) If the essence of 'hard' violence consists in the physical suppression o
a111: Logged on 2014-03-21 17:44 asciilifeform: a videoclip of a fairy tale coming true... ...they [americans] also wish to drive around in jeeps, accompanied by squadrons of hotties in berets with kalashnikovs - but are impotent from birth. Envy, taken with an understanding of one's own powerless... easily transforms into hatred. The leaders of the sanitarium are easier for the 'patient' to understand, closer. He sees their permissible pecadillos, and is
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: enjoy trip
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-14#1902490 << this is the standard 'game-theoretical strength requires a working rng' neh.
a111: Logged on 2019-03-14 15:09 mircea_popescu: amusingly enough, this thing runs right into the institution of the harem (guess what alfie -- institution that DIDNT have all individuals leave!) because master's opting for idiocy is ~required~ on occasion. you can very much fail through being too reliably thinking, counterintuitively enough. or perhaps [http://trilema.com/2011/arta-pedepsirii/][not so counterintuitively].
asciilifeform: !#s simulated annealing
a111: 13 results for "simulated annealing", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=simulated%20annealing
asciilifeform: ^ see also.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-14#1902437 << in 1941 su there was a mass of very similar morons who expected to 'drink bavarian' , chix lined up for barber shops to get fashionable hair to show to germans, etc. imho people who actually expect that getting conquered results in mass handout of candy and beer are tards. history offers no example of this kinda thing, and plenty -- of the obv. opposite, the 1 where no candy but instead ht
asciilifeform: tp://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1902010
a111: Logged on 2019-03-14 09:31 spyked: re the above, nato reich did not advertise that part in their brochures. I suppose the ones who previously waited "sa vina americanii" were very happy in 1990 because "can nao eat hot dog and hamburgers" (mcd wasn't even the first of its kind in ro)
asciilifeform: incidentally re http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1901981 , another good example -- south kr. industrialized entirely 'not communistically' but via same exact method.
a111: Logged on 2019-03-13 20:46 asciilifeform: peasants quite logically dun want to industrialize, it is elementarily misery in immediate term
asciilifeform: to this day typical d00d working for e.g. 'samsung' lives approx. like factory worker under ceausescu ( and i suspect -- even moar threadbare )
asciilifeform: and somehow despite definitely-not-communists
asciilifeform: ( afaik to this day, mentioning communists in anyffin but the same light as a christian mentions satan, in south kr , is good for coupla yrs in the clink )
asciilifeform: somehow, somehow! south kr did not turn into a mcd paraside of fast cars an' suburban picket fence, despite spreading legs for usg in '50s
asciilifeform: *paradise
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-14#1902515 << w. jaruzelski tried...
a111: Logged on 2019-03-14 15:30 mircea_popescu: what's he gonna do, kneel a country ?
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-14#1902498 << usg 'war of imagination' started looong before 2001. arguably in 1918 'prohibition'.
a111: Logged on 2019-03-14 15:22 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-14#1902438 << just like the other idiots. consider : if usg dissolved itself in 2001 instead of pretending to a "war" of imagination, people would have ~regretted~ it. but as it stubbornly carried on for another 20 years, it's just as heavily hated at the top as conceivable, and in another decade they'll be shot in the street retributively, for having been part of it at all.
asciilifeform: and never skipped a beat since.
feedbot: http://qntra.net/2019/03/remote-code-execution-vulnerability-hits-automattics-org-wordpress-fork/ << Qntra -- Remote Code Execution Vulnerability Hits Automattic's .Org WordPress Fork
asciilifeform: Run Moar Modern Softs(tm)(r)
BingoBoingo: Check less things!!!
feedbot: http://bimbo.club/2019/03/clean-getaway/ << Bimbo.Club -- Clean Getaway.
mircea_popescu: 1918s us hadnt yet failed. in fact, hadn't yet even proven itself.
mircea_popescu: was more of a "o yeah ? that;s quaint. keks" thing
mircea_popescu: the hole people continue to give mp-wp a bad name i see.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-14#1902442 << it does not seem to me ion ratiu & co (coposu, a buncha other fossils) had any fucking clue as to anything whatsoever. in a cool evaluation, actually worse than the "descurcati". ironically enough, the objection as voiced is A LOT more substantial than the same group of dorks aforementioned, pompously pretending themselves "the intellectual elite" and whatnot, wanted to give credit
a111: Logged on 2019-03-14 09:36 diana_coman: presumably there again, there was one chance and it was rejected because ratiu hadn't eaten salam cu soia; but that's what if, no idea if again iliescu was presumably "the best available"
mircea_popescu: for.
mircea_popescu: ie, there's more substance in the "n-ati mincat salam cu soia" rejection than in the "oh, i wear a bowtie and we're camping in piata universitatii" offer.
mircea_popescu: this is amply illustrated in the recent derpage re m i quintus. because ~he died very old~ everyone was falling over themselves to praise. but the dood was a more shameful stain on pnl than eg viorel catarama.
mircea_popescu: if he lives to be 90, crin antonescu will have recreated quintus almost identically.
mod6: I'm going to be rebuilding the new irc server tonight to include NICKLENs of 24 chars (fleabag has a max of 16, trinque also checked, an no current regiesterd nick in deedbot is >24), TOPICLEN of 390 chars (for uberlong topics/urls etc), and USERREGLENs of also 24.
mod6: Going to also be adding in nickserv/chanserv, some other services. Will announce when it's back up for testing. Cheers.
mircea_popescu: (dood is this obscure ro embassy in uk clerk, who stayed behind in the 40s and married some local woman, worked as a bank clerk for 30 years while contributing weekly pieces to whatever anti-ro-govt efforts the brits were lukewarmly pursuing at the time. he has exactly all the qualifications to run the country as that guaido derp, or poroshenko or [http://trilema.com/2015/views-from-a-shithole-or-periplus-through-stupidity/][
mircea_popescu: whatever]. "looks kinda like obama, should be good".
mircea_popescu: but whatever, i guess cotidianul was ok, up until about 2000 or so.
mircea_popescu: anyway -- iliescu wasn't even particularly good, according to anyone involved. he was however the only one who wasn't shockingly fucked in the head. but i mean, SHOCKINGLY.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-14#1902443 << actually, it was quite fucking obvious : 1. the country has a large industrial base ; 2. that is only useful to turn a dollar's worth of energy into about 20 cents worth of vandable product ; 3. while at the time supporting a population that was 4. shockingly unskilled labour.
a111: Logged on 2019-03-14 09:37 spyked: from discussions with ppl who were in their 20s-30s at the time, my understanding is that most folks had no idea what to expect from "new regime". they were being fed with "transition phase" and other similar buzzwords
mircea_popescu: the supporting in 3 was not merely food -- all these idle useless fucktarded dorks expected to eg heat tghemselves in winter for free with the abundant waste heat resulting from 2. and to steal off the production like. and to generally not work and etc. with the possible exception of bulgaria, romania had the worst workforce of anywhere in europe, at moment 1990.
mircea_popescu: this ~was~ fixed, in point of fact, and while http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-08#1893885 items are readily derrided as a sort of http://www.loper-os.org/?p=165#selection-245.330-245.440 nevertheless it is the case that the [http://trilema.com/2011/romanul-si-marea/#selection-141.0-169.68][Doua sute de servitori imbracati frumos, ca servitorii de casa nobila, in livrea albastra cu cravata va conduc la ora actuala ca pe vitele c
a111: Logged on 2019-02-08 19:48 diana_coman: mircea_popescu, I found only this one http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/Iitk3/?raw=true although I remember a better one
mircea_popescu: are sunteti din pozitia de expati prin multinationale.] actuallty fixed romania's pre-eminent problem in the 90s, one that ceausescu failed to even dare address -- witness how there's no discussion of "you fucks are the worst miners that ever went down a shaft" in response to the "jos cu burghezia rosie" bullshit he had to confront in valea jiului cca 77.
mircea_popescu: ie, the writer dorks aren't the ~only ones~ he was... abstainedly uncritical with. cowardly enough, he also did the same when his skin was in it.
mircea_popescu: so no "tranzitie" bullshit whatsoever : we're gonna have to cut all the spurious "industry" in name only, and cut all the fucktards who depend of it. and IT WAS DONE. and it was done as hard and fast as it ~could~ be done, witness the whole "miners invading capital" lulz during radu vasile.
mircea_popescu: so yes romania kinda lost its nuclear technology plants ; but romania also now has fine mechanics that actually works, and actually makes money, and unlike bulgaria or fucking austria, let alone jokes like costa rica or argentina, has a very well working, agile and effectual industrial base. narrower than it could have been in a very idealised sense, but way the fuck wider than it'd have been had eg the "agricultural plans" o
mircea_popescu: f hruschev era caer went in.
mircea_popescu: there's exactly nothing wrong with "making breaks for bmw". all bmw consists of is producers of parts, an assembly plant, and a sticker factory. what you ~want~ in that cake is to be one of the parts producers. it is folly to imagine "owning intellectual property" in "the brand" has any fucking value. it is idiocy to try like the argentines, to assemble chinese kits and call it "an industry". the only good position is the pos
mircea_popescu: ition ro went for, and mostly got. in the large land grab post us collapse, romania got what pieces it could grab, and while it didn't grab as much as say germany, or poland, it grabbed WAY the fuck more than even france, let the ufck alone jokes like spain. and it did better in this land rush than it did in the 60s/70s oil rush we discussed yest.
mircea_popescu: and it mostly did better because isarescu is not ceausescu, at that. ie, came from a wineyard fambly.
mircea_popescu: by which i mean, that negotiating with the miners was the absolute worst fucking decision possible. the policy is either correct, in which case it gets defended, or incorrect, in which case it gets corrected. there can't possibly be this "oh, we should x but let's y instead", factual-abdication-without-formal-abdication. in which sense diana_coman has a solid point, "dood should have had his referendum ipso facto in 77, not b
mircea_popescu: s about for another idle decade, waiting for the pile to rot"
mircea_popescu: now, admittedly [http://trilema.com/2009/de-mogulibus/#selection-65.31-65.204][the average 20yo] living in 1990 had no fucking clue of any of the foregoing : not merely because the average 20yo has no fucking clue anywhere and anytime, ustarded 20yos actually go into debt to go to "college" today, even! but also because other than the romanian citizens i personally know, NO FUCKING BODY had ANY FUCKING CLUE about ANYTHING. AT
mircea_popescu: FUCKING ALL.
mircea_popescu: and incidentally, this continues -- there's "romanian bdsm" dorks today, as fucking if, amusingly omitting to mention that there's exactly one romanian bdsm-er ; and [http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-01#1900071][hilarious cvasi-republican posturing] and all the rest of it. that they're drowning in hollow halo of buzzwords which nevertheless fails to mask at all the complete sadness underneath is not like the fucking martians' f
a111: Logged on 2019-03-01 23:04 mircea_popescu: iptomonede, opinii" but even manages to write [https://www.cyberculture.ro/2015/08/07/carte-maladia-lui-eminescu-eugen-simion/][a piece on] the celebrated http://trilema.com/2011/romania-cea-de-basm-partea-i/ item (four years later) without somehow managing to at all EVEN MENTION let alone fucking address the whole reason public funds were even misdirected towards printing that (meanwhile melted down) piece
mircea_popescu: ault. this is what the mass-romanian is and does, nobody is needed to "do it to him", much like nobody's needed to drag shit into lelea saveta's cunt. she does it, by herself, every time she wipes.
mircea_popescu: so yeah, while isarescu was trying to figure out which accreditives to sign in which order on which day, bnr of that winter being the largest cheque kiting entreprise in the entire world, a bunch of morons sitting on upturned beer cases "discussed politics". that nothing comprehensible came of the latter effort's the participants' fault.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-14#1902449 << i'll tell you exactly what it means : my preferred course at the time would have been to execute everyone with a https://proxy.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.newsbucovina.ro%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2015%2F12%2Fcarnet-pcr.jpg
a111: Logged on 2019-03-14 09:56 spyked: diana_coman, I suspect this was mostly a case of "revision is well-received, but don't change anything"; which is why iliescu/fsn had so much support and average derp saw the taranisti as "way too mean" (no idea precisely what "mean" means, that's what I've been told)
mircea_popescu: execute, as in, shot in the head. everyone, as in, 2-3mn people.
mircea_popescu: that, sadly, was unsupportable, correctness be damned. and if you ain't gonna do the right thing, iliescu's way the fuck better a schelling point than herpitty-derp&co.

2019-3-13 | 2019-3-15