mircea_popescu: and by now you're far far beyond "doing things for fun an' to learn" toylulz.
phf: sina: i actually checked, and fwiw guix doesn't let you build emacs without dbus dependency. (in fact none of the odds and ends like svg, xml or alsa can be disabled without patching the package definition file)
mircea_popescu: a breadboard is, for electronic circuitry, exactly what a general purpose db is for programming.
mircea_popescu: it allows you support to set out all your shit and connect it as you want, and measure and decide how to package it.
mircea_popescu: could be done in your hand, or else in your pants pocket while riding the subway. it'd be harder is all.
mircea_popescu: it is sometimes practiced, and sometimes accepted, to ship circuits back and forth straight on their breadboard. this is entirely up to the people involved and not proper subject of legislation.
a111: Logged on 2017-06-21 17:05 asciilifeform: doing FIVE ( yes, it's five ) machine muls, in there, and 5 machine adds ( instead of motherfucking ZERO ) JUST TO GET THE UPPER WORD of word*word mul, is not.
asciilifeform: compilers for braindamaged archs ( i.e. all extant archs ) are rather 'socialism' flavoured, in that you're stuck forcing 'unprincipled exceptions' (inline asm) if you want to use anything close to the iron's full capacity
mircea_popescu: back in msdos days it was int21 and etc for ... video iron's full capacity.
phf: or perhaps now that he has successfully served as the main driving force behind the tenets of tmsr technology and ensured that they are collectively accepted, he doesn't need to reaffirm them as much. but i also have wonder if the tenets have as much of a galvanizing effect now that we mostly had a chance to observe both their positive and negative effects?
mod6: with btc, even if "prototype" was imho worth using in the battlefield. "you go to war with the army you have..." doesn't mean either that it can't be made better or replaced later.
mircea_popescu: phf for my curiosiuty, list tenets and positive/negative effects ?
phf: that's a tricky request, but the tenets are around shitlangs differentiation, "fits in head", v as a way of releasing code, what it means to own a piece of technology. there's a handful of threads that had definitive conclusions, that i consider tenets (i think the word should be in quotes to indicate that while not true tenets, violating them will require reopening large threads)
mircea_popescu: yeah, whole line sounds a lot like baiting, but not at all my intention.
mircea_popescu: just, work happens when prodded, and systematization is work like any other work.
phf: ah, so it's a subtle "what tenets would that be? handy if you made a LIST of them here, eh!"
sina: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-08#1680437 << why I used a db: because the spec said use flatfile, I first tried to implement flatfile one and after realising I would need to either shell out to utilities like "touch" and/or "find"/"ls" etc, or implement some of their functionality myself, I decided to import a library that does that stuff not terribly, called sqlite
a111: Logged on 2017-07-08 00:38 asciilifeform: ( it adds a screamingly unwarranted runtime and nonfitsinhead complexity to just about any proggy )
mircea_popescu: i don't know it has to be shitty, unless there's some other constraint, like "make it overnight"
sina: imagine flatfile example of "assigning" generated key from "available" => "user" state, or "user" => "bogus" state, that's moving a keyfile from gossipd/keys/available to gossipd/keys/users/foo or similar action, now my program has to either invoke "mv" or write mv-like functionality into my app
mod6: mircea_popescu: re, logs, inline-pr0n helps too :D
mircea_popescu: sina i don't get it ? make file with keys, make file with assignments. why mv ?
sina: mircea_popescu: but still even in that case I need to "walk" the list of assignments, looking for ^available, so I need to use grep or write a iterating-finder-thingo myself and then something like sed to change the line or write a text-changer-at-a-line myself
mircea_popescu: well, for you in that you get to say you did it (ie, have the experience), and for alf that he's not stuck importing ALL THE REST of sqlite.
sina: and you contend the actual final implementation of such a thing will actually be less lines of a code than the existing thing
mircea_popescu: sina simple example and i don't pretend like this is useful : /assignments/0f0a.txt contains or does not contain "hurrdurr". by checking if it does you know hurrdurr is assigned to 0f0a.
mircea_popescu: sina does sqlite have unicode support ? if it does, then it will necessarily be less lines of code.
mod6: im ~starting~ to get the hang of this ada stuff.
mod6: as a way to teach it to myself, i've been poking around with a v impl.
mod6: not sure it'll ever see the light of day tho.
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> sina: trolling asciilifeform is actually pretty hard << Then why are the neighborhood's small mammals so successful with their verminating?
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-08#1680511 << partly it is that i'd like to do a fair share of keeping the snr high, by... ~not having same thread 9000 times~, see if perhaps the l0gz will do their bit and answer ' what does asciilifeform say to X ? ' q for those folx who have it
a111: Logged on 2017-07-08 01:13 phf: pretty sure asciilifeform is actively ignoring the whole initiative, with only periodic pounces. as opposed to his older strategy of annihilating the whole thing upfront. must be getting old
asciilifeform: and partly in that i find the 'prototype' that solves 0 of the difficult problems, simply not interesting. i can write a perlism that pushes shitrsa packets over tcp etc. in half hour. but why.
asciilifeform: ( and iirc i already explained this in agonizingly pedantic detail. but apparently the requisite lines in the l0gz are magically invisible..? or wut )
ben_vulpes: > do not use * to mark line suppression
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-08#1680517 << this is quite a bit moar 'mean gurlz' than actually in play, phf. i dun give anything like the suggested amount of fuck. the educable - learn, the rest - will learn by pissing on the electric fence personally; or, when far too late, already having 'fucked the cousin' etc.
a111: Logged on 2017-07-08 01:24 phf: no, it's more like alfs rhetoric approach at some point was encouraged, where's now it seems to be recognized, and often treated with "oh it's just alf doing his thing".
ben_vulpes: am i to take from this line in the od manpage that it doesn't actually output faithfully without extra flags?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform check it out, you're famous nao, being discussed in absentia.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: ikr? i was having tea and saw l0gz and 'wtf'
asciilifeform: iirc it was pete_dushenski who compared to talmud.
asciilifeform: i went and got hold of an actual talmud, to compare.
ben_vulpes: basically unsafe to use unix tools without reading manpages exhaustively, and probably source to boot
mod6: and as far as pete_dushenski or whomevers quest to write a log digest or whatever, it never happened. the foundation briefly considered a role for gathering up trb related parts, but that was set aside in exchange for tb0t
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: talmud likely five hundred years to early of a comparison
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-08#1680565 << it stalled at the discovery that 1) performance is abysmal 2) for wholly fundamental reasons ( of shit-poor rewritable data structures forced by 'generic fs' shape ) 3) all extant fs would have to be patched regardless to remove idiot node caps, and may as well write proper db from scratch that is bitcoin-shaped 5) asciilifeform then wrote the latter, in ada, and put on shelf, to pick up a
a111: Logged on 2017-07-08 02:31 mircea_popescu: this locks into an older discvussion re bitcoin fs, which was iirc still stalled at perf-ing the various available fs thoroughly for massive directory/file usage.
a111: Logged on 2017-03-15 23:46 asciilifeform: in unrelated noose, 'nqb' reads & parses a full 1MB block, with 2218 tx, and recreates it from fast-form, again to disk, in 0.123 sec. on a 3GHz opteron cum ssd.
a111: Logged on 2017-03-20 17:00 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-20#1629256 << even reiser is almost certainly waste of time, general-purpose fs is very sharply the opposite of what we want, they are all optimized for mutability (can delete/rename/resize/etc) and fast reads at the expense of slow entity creation, as well as carrying out silent rebalances/defrags/etc.
asciilifeform: reiser is afaik the undisputed champ, if somebody still wants to experiment with classical fs.
mircea_popescu: there's no "best use of measurement" for exact same reason there's no "wot best practices", or "ideal rng values"
asciilifeform: there is the use of time, of which king and slave alike has finite qty. but i can only suggest to folx, how to use it. if they want to build perpetuum mobile to 'measure whether possible' -- or trisect angle -- let'em
asciilifeform: imho some of the greatest discoveries were precisely of the 'this is a dead end, don't burn your life on this' type.
mircea_popescu: geting hard numbers on file system performance, something everyone involved in data storage for the past 30 years has been vehehehery deliberately hiding, is certainly better use of time than, for instance, attempting to reason with djb jzw & all.
asciilifeform: i suspect that fellating hogs is better use of time than speaking to djb et al
sina: mircea_popescu: "self" just signifies the message was published into the local messages list by the local client itself. suggestions are open for other ways to signify same, e.g. if you think the entry should simply be blank
sina: but what about bogus and available keys? keys/available/???.key and keys/bogus/???.key, so the two questions would be, 1. what are they named, 2. how to transition states, e.g. from available to assigned
sina: I dunno about this suggestion. for example if I want to assign an available key, I need to list the keys in /keys, then subtract from that list the list of keys in /keys/assigned and /keys/bogus ?
mircea_popescu: well, if you wish to assign a SPECIFIC key, then you must edit the /keys/assigned/key.symlink reference to point to it.
sina: because I definitely remember in the past thinking thoughts along the lines of "filesystem is a ~btree, rdbms is a ~btree, why am I ~btree on top of ~btree", and reading discussions about this topic on the internet, and feel like I remember *someone* mentioning something about this
BingoBoingo: You wanna know whats more important than throwin away money at a strip club? Credit/ You ever wonder why Jewish people own all the property in America? This how they did it. << Line by noted White Supremacist Jay-Z
mircea_popescu: wait, he's trying to turn the horde of aging "trynna make it as a pimp" blacks into good consumers with credit cards ?
a111: Logged on 2017-06-13 15:17 mircea_popescu: and this model ENTIRELY explains all of the "luminaries". werner koch worked the feeder-chumper cycle. stallman worked the feeder-chumper cycle. curtis yarvin worked the etcetera.
a111: Logged on 2017-07-08 07:21 sina: I dunno much about lisp, but I think lisp handles this better in the sense you write state into the "lisp machine" and can flush that entire state out to disk and read it therefrom as well?
a111: Logged on 2017-04-10 16:26 asciilifeform: re lisp state -- not sure this is doable on unix -- how do you dump and restore textual representation of posix threads ? fd's ?
trinque: and mentioning lisp, CLOS is by my lights, the best taxonomy building tool that exists.
trinque: what it lacks (at least as part of the CLOS standard, afaik) is a standard for how one CLOS program shares objects and methods with another, whether on same box or across the network.
trinque: I'd say folks yes, use sqlite because they did not reason the program out completely before beginning to write code, but they often use postgresql as a messaging platform, RPC, or what have you
trinque: anyhow, curious what the lisp graybeards have to say about CLOS over the wire
asciilifeform: trinque: iirc this is one of the things the symbolics folx had to make a proprietary gadget for, because it is nowhere in the standard
asciilifeform: ( and probably could not be in the standard, such things as, e.g., width of the machine word, were not universal constants )
sina: mircea_popescu: suggestions on avoiding ad-hoc datatypes? one idea I was thinking was for example rather than ../messages/<msg_hash> file with contents "sender,delivered_by,message", have a directory ../messages/<msg_hash>/sender|delivered_by|message files?