Logs for #trilema

Go to: #trilema #pizarro #asciilifeform #trilema-mod6 #chainstate #eulora

2018-10-14

phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-13#1862183 << no, i don't use portability packages in my own code (they are the hole through which the darkness comes), and when something pulls it as a dependency, it comes from quicklisp
a111: Logged on 2018-10-13 23:31 asciilifeform: !Q later tell phf wouldja happen to have a frozen nonretarded version of bordeaux-threads somewhere ? the one i have, is utterly sad, squats nickname 'bt' which prevents binary-types from working...
phf: out of curiousity i went through the log, and bordeaux-threads had that bt nickname pretty much since creation, in 2006
phf: (btcbase uses 0.8.5, though i might have an older version somewhere on backup drives)
asciilifeform: phf: imho it is retarded that packages can conflict
asciilifeform: i dun see why it ougta be possible, period
asciilifeform: ( and afaik in ada -- it aint )
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-15#1862519 << i dun want to marry sbcl.. is this so much to ask
a111: Logged on 2018-10-15 00:17 phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-13#1862183 << no, i don't use portability packages in my own code (they are the hole through which the darkness comes), and when something pulls it as a dependency, it comes from quicklisp
asciilifeform: ( prolly The Right Thing then is to write own compat layers. for errything. but only 2 hands,sadly )
phf: asciilifeform: well, a portability layer is the ultimate ifdef, and in this case worse written by somebody else
asciilifeform: that, it is
phf: one of the major wtfs when reading asdf code, is that when all the ifdef's fall through, hte system falls back to some seriously questionable solutions, like shelling out to unix level with elaborate commands (i don't remember the example, but it's almost like "mkdir {} && cd ..." type stuff)
asciilifeform: it's actually one of the reasons i haven't ever finished rewrite of phuctor in cl. erry time i sat down to do it, barfed on one of these things
phf: but you would never know, because in sbcl it generally does the right thing
asciilifeform: right, they're mostly skins on sbcl, to the extent they work at all
phf: well, after reading the CADR documentation, source code and generally spending more time on a lisp machine, i realized that modern common lisp is a cargo cult. i'm not sure how naggum didn't see it, but possibly because his lisp was emacs/cmucl/franz
asciilifeform: aha, he had his paid allegro
phf: it's a compatability layer between lisp machines, and as such provides a minimum of coverage of common functionality.
asciilifeform: and it , afaik, worked 'like white man's tech' or near.
asciilifeform: my impression was that allegro did 'all them things not in the standard' and actually did them well.
asciilifeform: so he never had to eat the compat layer liquishit.
phf: yeah, pretty much. a totally different experience from, say, sbcl, and a lot closer to a real lisp machine too. comes with all the things builtin, so you never really need to touch outside world
asciilifeform: prolly the eventual Right Thing will be when we proclaim a republican cltron and start massaging it to eventually climb to that level.
phf: right
asciilifeform: and sbcl aint it. i'd prefer something like kyoto, or which ever was the absolute shortest that implemented whole standard, for starting point
phf: i suspect you might discover it to be same kind of situation as tinyscheme
asciilifeform: actually looking at my notes from ages past, i did, and did.
asciilifeform: sadly.
asciilifeform: would like to find something actually readable, at least, if not buildable-on.
asciilifeform: but even this may be too much to hope.
asciilifeform: phf: context : i was baking a noad walker / torturer, orig in python, little thing, thought it would be doable in a day or 2; then found that mass of prb etc all break protocol in 9000 interesting ways, an extra byte here an' there, and realized that it aint doable without adult condition handling/restarts, which means cl.
phf: aah
phf: yeah, i wrote a small subset of bitcoin protocol in lisp, but rolled my own binary types. i think i can ask for version, and i can also ask for peers, and i started on getblock functionality..
asciilifeform: that's approx where i left off, aha
asciilifeform: worx ok with trb. but heathens do all kinds of weird things, throw up various garbage in place of e.g. getaddr answer
asciilifeform: or disconnect in the middle of things, etc
asciilifeform: phf: i was aiming for 3 basic things : 1) recursively getaddr entire reachable btc net, perhaps erry hour or so 2) find trb-compat (i.e. 'services' == 1 ) non-pseudos (i.e. if i pull block hash out of a hat, he quickly gives correct block) and eventually 3) get inv's and monitor tx propagations.
asciilifeform: the heathen node-viewing www's systematically lie, e.g. conceal 'too old' clients , present fucking pseudos as if they were actual nodes, and commit other war crimes
asciilifeform: i'd like a (ideally real-time) picture of the actual network.
asciilifeform: this line of thought was prompted by my 'trb observatory', which has uncovered a number of 'mpb'-style nodes, i.e. trb-like but not presenting 'modern' vers and therefore invisible from heathen www indices
phf: i wonder what sort of technology those heathen node walkers use, i.e. if it's a patched up bitcoin client, or if they have own protocol parsers. seems like too much serious know how for the later
asciilifeform: phf: hell knows, prolly kilometres of java
asciilifeform: written in bangalore
asciilifeform: with 9000-deep of-else'en.
asciilifeform: *if
asciilifeform: phf: essence of hypothesis, is that the ~actual~ bitcoin network looks nothing at all like what 'nodes.io' or other heathen scamola, try to pass off
asciilifeform: for instance, http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-10#1859945 may or may not be factual
a111: Logged on 2018-10-10 01:22 asciilifeform: https://archive.is/ltRHd << per same, of the 4 public noadez in BingoBoingostan, 3 are in pizarro
asciilifeform: and i'd like to know .
asciilifeform: and really, all of romania is solid prb ??
asciilifeform: difficult to believe.
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: I have come around to thinking of the process that leads to this "wished helplessness"
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: hm?
phf: lol, i accidentally pasted that archive url without the d, https://archive.is/ltRH
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Bingostan having 4 public nodes
asciilifeform: ahahahahaha phf
asciilifeform: i wonder what other spamola lurks.
BingoBoingo: "wished helplessness" goes with hallucinated optionality
phf: i was like "wtf, kind of shit ascii accidentally pasted instead of the real url" :p
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: point was, the observation came from heathen site known to systematically lie
asciilifeform: phf: lol
asciilifeform: for non-ru folx, procrusted link goes to a thing re an anti-faggotry protest in ukrlandia
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Well, if they wish hard enough they don't have to not lie
BingoBoingo: Who is going to check their work?
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: it's an empty niche, sorta like phuctor's pre-phuctor
asciilifeform: plenty of scamola artists who supposedly catalogue nodes, but all with 9000 seekrit filters, and present liquishit as if it were noad
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Right, it is a niggers.txt.xls document
phf: so it looks like bvt is correct, there's no way to make ada's Create throw an exception if the file already exists
BingoBoingo: Meanwhile, in the meme front: http://archive.is/vExuu
phf: is it the NPC meme?
BingoBoingo: phf: it is the NPC meme vs the Russian bot meme
phf: we're way down the rabbit hole here
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: lol!! where's this one from
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Found on the return of kink guy's forum. Apparently was originally found on twitter.
BingoBoingo: Authorship unknown.
ben_vulpes: mod6 asciilifeform BingoBoingo: the remaining stateside fuckgoats are packed in a specific box that i will relocate with my person.
BingoBoingo: ben_vulpes: Sweet
phf: bvt: your patch has "Binary files..." at the very end of it. i assume it wasn't made with vdiff
phf: !Qlater bvt ^
phf: !Q later tell bvt ^^
lobbesbot: phf: The operation succeeded.
phf: the other thing, and that's somewhat of a personal preference, i think Create_Temporary_File should either act identical to create or be called something else. right now it clashes with ada's naming convention
phf: (when i proposed the name i was thinking that it will be a wrapper around http://www.ada-auth.org/standards/rm12_w_tc1/html/RM-A-8-1.html#p6
phf: but without the name, so you call it, and you get an open file right away, rather than dragging around a useless name)
phf: oh i guess i see why that would be tricky, because of the specialization. i don't know enough ada yet to know how to fix that... perhaps just renaming it to Temporary_File is sufficient
phf: !!key bvt
deedbot: http://wot.deedbot.org/6CF3EFF892A7F23E7E798E5EBA6B8C054B962B68.asc
phf: i like how C 2012 standard says that x flag works "to the extent that the underlying system supports exclusivity". of course no indication when it doesn't..
phf: diana_coman: i've updated eucrypt to keccak, i also added ave1's patch there. also brought udp up to date.
phf: the graph appears to be complete, and the project also presses, thank you for jumping through all the hoops!
deedbot: http://bingology.net/2018/10/14/that-one-agricultural-product-and-uruguay/ << Bingology - BingoBoingo's Blog - That One Agricultural Product And Uruguay
asciilifeform: phf: in other lulz, yet another ivory on lulzbay
asciilifeform: ( from same place as ~always )
asciilifeform: lol apparently ~1h left on it
phf: the gift that keeps on giving
asciilifeform: phf: i'm still waiting for those archaeological finds phf hinted at 2y ago...
phf: asciilifeform: i actually forgot! i'm swamped right now, but can you remind me again in about two weeks, i have a thing for you from the dig that will help with the little piece of silicon you have
asciilifeform: ty phf, will remind.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-14#1862213 << im not entertaining the nonsense. will not make different packets of very strictly disjunct content same size to humor software engineer naivitees masquerading as prime principles.
a111: Logged on 2018-10-14 04:30 Mocky: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-13#1862167 >> I don't see how it would necessarily be any simpler aside from one `if` statement. And there's nothing to stop listening on separate ports and getting all benefits asciilifeform mentions with different sizes
mircea_popescu: there's exactly nothing similar between rsa packet and serpent packet. for the same money could ask to have busses and flour delivered in single container.
asciilifeform: funnily enuff , i have 2L bottles of both water and kerosene, dun rely on purely size to distinguish. but mircea_popescu can write his proggy however he wants.
mircea_popescu: what, you taste first each time you open bottle ?
asciilifeform: labels .
asciilifeform: ( and smell, lol, but that comes 2nd )
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-14#1862282 << nah, you'd have two threads running, one taking packets type 1 and the other taking packets type 2. if it's expedient to use 2 ports, use 2 ports, np.
a111: Logged on 2018-10-14 07:49 diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-14#1862213 -> it's more than just one if statement (although unnecessary branches in themselves are not great anyway); basically it's the udp code itself that has to be messed up to accommodate this particular thing - either using generic or otherwise using the largest of the two and then filtering one level higher
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform there's no such thing as label in context.
asciilifeform: nah you have it, 2 ports.
mircea_popescu: in fact, this is precisely what you're objecting to, "why should kerosene bottle have a slightly taller red cap, should have exact same cap as water bottle!"
asciilifeform: sorta makes the thread redundant, as diana_coman pointed out, you can still use fixed receivers.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform not redundant because the rsa processor is "best effort", ie, only goes if there's spacetime in machine
asciilifeform: well yes, it's a separate process, you nice 19 it
asciilifeform: loox simple enuff
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-14#1862284 << yep, this was precisely the idea.
a111: Logged on 2018-10-14 07:53 diana_coman: in fact the 3rd option that is the one actually to use is having different sizes on the two processes (i.e. different constant simply)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i possibly dun wanna drag the nice thing into it, but i dunno, way too early to optimize this partuclar pile.
asciilifeform doesn't disagree
mircea_popescu: bvt "Ada exposes no functions that have 'exclusive open' semantics, so I imported C
mircea_popescu: functions to make this functionality available." << im not so crazy about this approach, but hey. if it links it links.
asciilifeform: and if even also runs, even better!1
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-14#1862295 << bootstrapping problem, he has to get vtools compiled to press mp-wp to install it on the rk he already bought.
a111: Logged on 2018-10-14 11:56 diana_coman: bvt, get yourself a pizarro shared account and start your blog there precisely with those pastes, what's keeping you?
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-14#1862300 << o.O that was quicker than expected...
a111: Logged on 2018-10-14 12:55 lobbes: and speaking of auctionbot: development is complete. At the moment I am getting ready to begin some prod testing and then all that's left is to write the blog post explaining the usage. Getting close!
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i'ma switch to issuing cuntoo for new pilot rk folx as soon as trinque is finished birthing it
asciilifeform: so nomoar 'with what do i press vtron' , 'where is php', etc
mircea_popescu: does it have either vtools or mp-wp ?
asciilifeform: by all rights gotta
asciilifeform: at the very least vtools
asciilifeform: ( sorta whole idea behind cuntoo )
trinque: mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-14#1862503
a111: Logged on 2018-10-14 20:41 trinque: billymg: hold onto that new ebuild for cuntoo.
asciilifeform brb
trinque: asciilifeform: what's left is finishing ebuilding-up phf's vtools, then release
phf: trinque: are you waiting on delete/rename or you have your own things to work on?
trinque: not blocked on anything afaik, improvements to vtools can come in as another patch for the ebuild tree
phf: ok, good
phf: i don't think i'll be able to cut rename tonight, and then i'll be busy until friday, though will try to steal an hour here and there
mircea_popescu: win.
mircea_popescu has been watching nude girlies dancing with mops and detailing floors on all fours (+high heels! who else has platform houseshoes?!) all day, is in a pretty great mood.
mircea_popescu: meanwhile in lulz, https://elonm.ru/
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-14#1862346 << wait, what ?
a111: Logged on 2018-10-14 15:08 lobbes: "castle-only" may be the way to go anyways; I'm not sure #trilema even needs the auctionbot to sit in here
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-14#1862352 << i see it ? http://archive.is/Bxyso#selection-549.1-549.3
a111: Logged on 2018-10-14 15:29 trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-14#1862212 << I don't see how I could have shaved off just that rating while fixing the diana_away thing, but if it turns out I did, my apologies
mircea_popescu: !!rated mocky
deedbot: mircea_popescu rated mocky 3 at 2018/10/10 16:39:15 << Mocky Habeeb. Wrote a book on Amazon DB ; works for infraWise (which is pretty lulzy, but don't hold it against him).
mircea_popescu: !#s "!!rate Mocky"
a111: 8 results for "\"!!rate Mocky\"", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=%22!!rate%20Mocky%22
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: trinque fixed
mircea_popescu: confirmed!
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-14#1862364 << this is important. ave1 you understand the difference ?
a111: Logged on 2018-10-14 15:55 diana_coman: as it is, it will be a .vpatch after the lookup implementation - so linear sequence rather than alternative; you might want to branch the tree instead from *before* the lookup implementation so that your div version is effectively alternative branch
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-14#1862386 << not at all! there's two possible ways to implement crc32 : with lookup tables, and with plain division. these are mutually exclusive. type 1 is faster, and therefore mainline. type 2 is smaller, and therefore of interest in certain contexts. therefore, at leaf=n, one has to chose : either n+1 type 1, or else n+1 type 2.
a111: Logged on 2018-10-14 16:11 diana_coman: ah, you mean that the only way to do this is to take crc32 out of eucrypt tree?
mircea_popescu: the leaves downstream from EACH n1 needn't be identical, nor needn't be different. in effect, the tree now has TWO groups of maintainers : those who maintain type 2 tree, for embeds, will not === those who maintain type 1 tree, for general use.
mircea_popescu: IF the groups ever diverge absolutely, they MIGHT eventually re-genesis the thing, making all leaves 1...n into a unified genesis and continuing from there.
mircea_popescu: but while there's overlap of people contributing to both type 1 and type 2 branches, it's more likely the situation will continue unground.
mircea_popescu: in any case, type1 might get i dunno, later-patch-taking-advantage-of-ddram whereas type 2 might get later-patch-needed-for-old-arms etc.
mircea_popescu: is any of this unclear at all ?
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-14#1862391 << i have no idea what you mean by this "taking out" expression.
a111: Logged on 2018-10-14 16:13 diana_coman: I honestly don't quite see the point of taking crc32 out for instance
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-14#1862394 << that's the discussion as to how "of course everything eventually merges into single tree".
a111: Logged on 2018-10-14 16:16 asciilifeform: diana_coman: iirc mircea_popescu in particular specifically hates libs-as-separate-trees, insists that proggy oughta include errything it eats. ( i dun recall whether he answered why it should not also then include the os and compiler also in same genesis, but i'ma leave thread alone for nao)
mircea_popescu: kinda the fucking point, building yggdrasil over here.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-14#1862397 << because cut-and-paste was never contemplated as a possible alternative, it was read-and-rewrite. because moving from one tree to another is exactly translation, one must bear in mind context and only implement ~the algo~. consider how we got crc32 -- we did NOT cut-and-paste from anywhere. diana RE WROTE IT!
a111: Logged on 2018-10-14 16:18 asciilifeform: imho 'unifiers' (i.e. patch that pulls in specific state from a parallel tree) is a cleaner way of accomplishing this than cut&paste, but i was unable to persuade.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-14#1862400 << #1 thing you do, is you TALK TO PEOPLE! there is no jwz way out of politics. if regrind hurts you, tell them not to fucking do it ; and if they won't listen tell whoever will listen to not follow the new thing. and so fucking on.
a111: Logged on 2018-10-14 16:21 diana_coman: asciilifeform, trouble is - what do you do then when/if that tree gets reground?
asciilifeform: iirc crc lifted directly from old gnat
mircea_popescu: v-tree lives through wot and through wot alone, it's not some kind of self contained magic.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform not afaik.
asciilifeform: diana_coman's, i mean
asciilifeform: ave1's is new
mircea_popescu: to quote, \"As usual, the forum quickly pointed me in the right direction - thank you ave1! - namely looking under the hood of course, in this case GNAT's own hood, the Systems.CRC32 package. Still, this package makes a whole dance of eating one single character at a time since it is written precisely to support the stream monstrosity on top rather than to support the user with what they might indeed need. Happily though, CRC
mircea_popescu: 32 is a very simple thing and absolutely easy to lift and package into 52 lines of code in the .adb file + 130 in the .ads file so 182 all in total1, comments and two types of input (string or raw array of octets) included."
mircea_popescu: this is 100% "read and rewrite" and entirely and absolutely NOT copy/paste.
asciilifeform: i do believe that diana_coman read.
asciilifeform: ( orig item http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-05#1858544 )
a111: Logged on 2018-10-05 16:21 asciilifeform: diana_coman: https://www2.adacore.com/gap-static/GNAT_Book/html/rts/s-crc32__adb.htm << pretty simple, you can even lift and civilize
mircea_popescu: this is what's contemplated here.
asciilifeform: possibly puzzled re what counts as 'rewrite' tho
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the act of outputting a text.
asciilifeform: ( when i rewrite , i actually start with empty buffer, but that could be just me )
mircea_popescu: i imagine it's just you. http://trilema.com/2012/runcible-doom/ << example rewrite. i did not start with empty buffer, nor does it matter any if you do.
mircea_popescu: nor does such a thing as "empty buffer" truly exist, nor is it any kind of substantial distinction, and so on.
mircea_popescu: imo this "empty buffer" notion is leftover implanted brain electrode from ustard academia/schooling. "oh, gotta be original". no such fucking thing ; and the only reason they talk about it is to keep intelligent people from doing important work.
mircea_popescu: the rest of the discussion is in http://trilema.com/2015/mps-very-brief-foray-into-a-poetry-forum/
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: no 'originality' contemplated, referring to simple act of using empty page. y'know, like in '80s when keying in gamez from mk61 b00k
mircea_popescu: even if what you end up writing down is 100% exactly identical to the original, nevertheless IT IS STILL A REWRITE, especially if the original is heathen -- as per "idiots may not have ideas" doctrine. http://trilema.com/2014/pro-idiotas-which-obviously-means-people-who-have-ideas-ie-idiots/#selection-145.129-145.542 and all that.
mircea_popescu: whereas in cases like http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-12#1860859 it is strictly evident both items were written, notwithstanding both identical.
a111: Logged on 2018-10-12 14:40 ave1: also at same time pasted
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform in the end we could phrase it as "some rewriters -- deeper than others".
mircea_popescu: rewrites*
asciilifeform: right. and the actual extent of rewritism is not necessarily visible to thirdparty, it is b/w the rewriter and odin, really
asciilifeform: often enuff will end up with ~same txt
mircea_popescu: in fact, a very solid basis for respect is, "whenever i sit down to rewrite x, i end up writing what he wrote ; whereas whenever i sit down to rewrite y, i end up using empty page. thus therefore x is rated 5 and y -10"
mircea_popescu: wtf is signing a vpatch than "i sat down to rewrite $author's work and came to his exact text, http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-12#1860859 style. therefore i undersign."
a111: Logged on 2018-10-12 14:40 ave1: also at same time pasted
mircea_popescu: in any case historically this ~exact process~ is how eg djb ended up with the modicum of respect he then proceeded to squander.
mircea_popescu: or whatever-other-name.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-14#1862408 << the benefit is that if they are legitimate multi, then there's different context which is well handled ; and if they are illegitimate (in the sense of, no context to well handle) there's pressure there to collapse.
a111: Logged on 2018-10-14 16:25 diana_coman: and then you are stuck maintaining those multiple trees - what's the benefit in that?
mircea_popescu: which is the fucking problem with current versioning systems, they encourage illegitimate context creation, of the sort of "i need to publish or perish therefore let us rename biology and rediscover it".
mircea_popescu: eg, branching the eucrypt tree over embeds/mainstream is (possibly ?) sustainable ; whereas branching it over "joe needs a project to direct to justify his employment with shithat" is exactly as sustainable as post-2018 linux.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-14#1862411 << but if you don't care about computers why are you talking to them ? you're not ~dependent~ on it, but i presume you care to some degree.
a111: Logged on 2018-10-14 16:25 diana_coman: once you bring it into your tree, you don't care about the original tree so ...how stuck?
diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-15#1862726 -> right, dependent is the right word there
a111: Logged on 2018-10-15 04:22 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-14#1862411 << but if you don't care about computers why are you talking to them ? you're not ~dependent~ on it, but i presume you care to some degree.
diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-15#1862722 -> hm, multi for the sake of it would anyway be taken care of via who signs and who doesn't sign the various patches or trees; but anyway - do you mean you think there should be explicit multi-tree dependencies? this is what I was talking about there: tree A effectively links to patch B.3 in tree B so if B's maintainer regrinds then A's maintainer has to go on a shouting spree (as per "talk to peop
diana_coman: le")
a111: Logged on 2018-10-15 04:20 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-14#1862408 << the benefit is that if they are legitimate multi, then there's different context which is well handled ; and if they are illegitimate (in the sense of, no context to well handle) there's pressure there to collapse.
diana_coman: I read and re-read and I get the impression that this sort of delayed conversation doesn't work very well so I'll leave it for now
diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-15#1862679 <-> http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-14#1862390
a111: Logged on 2018-10-15 03:57 mircea_popescu: in any case, type1 might get i dunno, later-patch-taking-advantage-of-ddram whereas type 2 might get later-patch-needed-for-old-arms etc.
a111: Logged on 2018-10-14 16:13 diana_coman: yes, the way I currently see it now is pretty much that: trunk (main line) goes along the production versions of all stuff (crc32 or keccak or whatever else) and otherwise at the respective points there can be additional branches /leaves with the reference implementations
diana_coman: in the more general case it can branch for all sorts of reasons and continue on those branches for as long as needed, of course
diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-15#1862681 -> taking out of the tree i.e. opposite of http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-15#1862683
a111: Logged on 2018-10-15 03:58 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-14#1862391 << i have no idea what you mean by this "taking out" expression.
a111: Logged on 2018-10-15 04:00 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-14#1862394 << that's the discussion as to how "of course everything eventually merges into single tree".
mircea_popescu: diana_coman absolutely not.
diana_coman: I gather that's re http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-15#1862730
a111: Logged on 2018-10-15 06:49 diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-15#1862722 -> hm, multi for the sake of it would anyway be taken care of via who signs and who doesn't sign the various patches or trees; but anyway - do you mean you think there should be explicit multi-tree dependencies? this is what I was talking about there: tree A effectively links to patch B.3 in tree B so if B's maintainer regrinds then A's maintainer has to go on a shoutin
mircea_popescu: tree A is single if there exists a "most extensive press" that includes all possible presses are included ; tree A is multi if no such MEP exists.
diana_coman: makes perfect sense, yes
mircea_popescu: right.
mircea_popescu: so then what's the q ? or ?
diana_coman: there isn't any question that I see remaining there; I think what happened was that I was thinking a bit out loud in the logs yesterday and I got to same conclusion basically but then you started answering to the first part and some things were not unclear at a distance too and so the whole thing
mircea_popescu: ah ah. okthen
ave1: asciilifeform, http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-14#1862451, I've been reading through the logs and could find no reference of how you did this. Could this be monitored with an FPGA? (there seem to be MAC level FPGA based routers).
a111: Logged on 2018-10-14 16:49 asciilifeform: ave1: there is not much to be said further re subj, i looked into what actually comes out of my lan, it sends 1500 frames upstream always.
diana_coman: btw I think this is a very good description indeed: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-15#1862713
a111: Logged on 2018-10-15 04:14 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform in the end we could phrase it as "some rewriters -- deeper than others".
mircea_popescu: ave1 can't just sniff packets one node upstream ?
ave1: Alternatively I was thinking about some simple speed tests (i.e. half size udp messages would translate in < half bandwith of max size udp messages)
ave1: mircea_popescu, I'm doing packet sniffing (with wireshark and netsniff etc) and I see different ethernet frame sizes reported
mircea_popescu: but are you dumping the raw frames ? or are they reconstructed the "indended" packet for you ?
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-14#1862454 << molodets!!!
a111: Logged on 2018-10-14 16:54 asciilifeform: on 1 occasion it was found necessary to build a icbm rocket that is too heavy for 1 car. head designer v. f. utkin found solution, he had a system of springs to distribute the weight between ~two~ cars. this is analogous to udp fraggism.
ave1: This I do not know (it looks raw). I'am probably doomed to read the linux network stack.
ave1: So far (by reading about this), I found that some NICs can do part of the framing for the OS (but I would expect that to be for large messages and not for small ones)
ave1: So if this part of framing happens at the hardware level then the connection to what is reported to the OS and actually on the line is weak
mircea_popescu: "raw packet", "raw frame", rawdog, etcetera. tcpdump/libpcap-likes tend to dump the packets not the frames.
mircea_popescu: listen on a raw socket. otherwise you're prolly getting what comes out of pf_packet, which is a packet.
ave1: netsniff-ng seems to show raw frames (eth mac is reported) but yes I'll look into the socket raw code
mircea_popescu: apparently that does do raw 802.11 frames.
diana_coman: ave1, the .ads in your .vpatch still has the original comments saying that it's a lookup-based implementation, lol
mircea_popescu: this poor guy!
mircea_popescu: y u copypaste, ave1 !
ave1: diana_coman, Ach yes, I did copy-paste everything I did not touch
diana_coman: this code is meant for touching, heh
diana_coman: ave1, please update so I can sign the patch
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-15#1862559 << heh.
a111: Logged on 2018-10-15 00:54 asciilifeform: this line of thought was prompted by my 'trb observatory', which has uncovered a number of 'mpb'-style nodes, i.e. trb-like but not presenting 'modern' vers and therefore invisible from heathen www indices
mircea_popescu: anyway, not a bad idea at all.
ave1: diana_coman, updated!
ave1: note I kept the S.MG 2018 lines untouched
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-15#1862587 << i suspek the problem's deeper here. ie, "already exists" concept may altogether be broken on linux/unix
a111: Logged on 2018-10-15 01:13 phf: so it looks like bvt is correct, there's no way to make ada's Create throw an exception if the file already exists
diana_coman: ave1, thanks, confirmed fine, I'll sign and mirror it on my shelf in a minute; (re s.mg lines - not a worry either way really)
diana_coman: hm, opening file for append however raises an exception if file does not exist
diana_coman: I used that at the udp tester to create file only if it does not exist
diana_coman: but granted: workaround
diana_coman: onth I'm not sure I want Create to throw exceptions - I want it to create the file and that's it, I don't care if it exists or not
mircea_popescu: specifically what i mean : if a process creates/deletes file on a very narrow schedule ; and another checks for file's existence on very narrow schedule, their respective pictures of when they think file exists and doesn't fails to match up.
mircea_popescu: not clear to me if caching shenanigans or what. but anyways.
diana_coman: ah ah
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-15#1862617 << speaking of which, hey lobbes, feel like adding a param to !Q later tell, whereby it can tell next it sees guy but not earlier than x hours ?
a111: Logged on 2018-10-15 02:44 asciilifeform: ty phf, will remind.
mircea_popescu: ppl can give themselves alerts this way then
mircea_popescu: could work like !Q later tell == !Q 0 tell ; otherwise !Q 144 tell
diana_coman: an shelf page updated with ave1's divtronic crc32; thank you ave1!; phf please snarf updated .vpatch and sigs when convenient: http://ossasepia.com/reference-code-shelf/#selection-429.0-443.46
ave1: btw, gnat specific; System.OS_Lib has 'Create_New_File' (it also has a temp file generator, but I cannot recommend, uses digits). bvt's implemention looks the way to go (Although the string allocations to talk to C should be removed)
ave1: and in that code, another way to send strings from Ada to C; http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/GZtAH/?raw=true
danielpbarron: !!up slycordinator
deedbot: slycordinator voiced for 30 minutes.
slycordinator: Is anyone on here in contact with someone who runs loper-os.org? I got directed here from clicking the "contact" link there. On the site, people can't make comments on articles as the captcha software used is out of date
slycordinator: The message on the captcha display says "reCAPTCHA V1 IS SHUTDOWN. Direct site owners to g.co/repaptcha/upgrade"
ave1: slycordinator, you're looking for asciilifeform, he may be available in a couple of hours.
slycordinator: I thought it was him. I sent a PM earlier but wasn't sure if someone else was also involved.
slycordinator: Thanks
ave1: In the mean time you could introduce yourself. And figure out where you are here: http://btcbase.org/log.
ave1: Example of a successful introduction here: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-10#1860372.
a111: Logged on 2018-10-10 21:09 bvt: Hello, I am BT from the recent diana_coman's comments section
slycordinator: So, to introduce myself, I'm an American living in Korea teaching English and studying data science/machine learning in my free time
ave1: slycordinator, that's very interesting, most people here are in the American Continents and some of us are in Europe (I'm in the Netherlands).
ave1: If you like to have a more permanent identity here, please register with deedbot
ave1: !!help
deedbot: http://deedbot.org/help.html
ave1: If you do, I'll rate you and you can self voice.
ave1: you like -> you would like
slycordinator: Sounds good. I'll come by on occasion; think my wife is annoyed with how much time I spend on the computer already though lol
ave1: !!up slycordinator
deedbot: slycordinator voiced for 30 minutes.
ave1: You have a limited window in which to register yourself, deedbot gives you half an hour.
diana_coman: slycordinator, for how long have you been in Korea? (south?) ; you can also join #asciilifeform to talk to asciilifeform
diana_coman: and do register a key as otherwise your introduction will not have any person to be linked to
slycordinator: Yes, South Korea. I've been here since February although I lived here a few years ago. My wife is from here and missed her country
diana_coman: oh, not bad
slycordinator: !!register http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/aZ2ne/?raw=true
deedbot: 34D174A2C91396A0975B8301054605BDAB923812 registered as slycordinator.
diana_coman: well done
ave1: !!rate slycordinator 1 new blood, in South Korea
deedbot: Get your OTP: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/xbtNH/?raw=true
ave1: !!v 5265653AA3B3CED1529AC5071FFC4CD4D8EBDDE1A3687C87A0AFD5D3832A41F0
deedbot: ave1 rated slycordinator 1 << new blood, in South Korea
slycordinator: And thank you for the info on the alternative for contacting asciilifeform; I'm looking into making a gentoo box for a NAS out of an ARM board he wrote up about
diana_coman: !!v E84934B83B58BF4EE3FC021E48E8306960681A188CF9C88AA326E6E8B5DF6F8A
deedbot: diana_coman rated slycordinator 1 << new blood, living in South Korea
slycordinator: currently, I've been using an old laptop for the purpose as-needed but I need to replace it with something
diana_coman: slycordinator, you prolly need to look at cuntoo as well then
diana_coman: !!s cuntoo
diana_coman: uhm, http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=cuntoo
slycordinator: Thanks for the pointer; first I've heard of it. I've used gentoo off-and-on for years. Although with my English teaching, I've mostly had to use windows since most materials shared around have been for MS Office (and the linux alternatives didn't work with the stuff usually)
ave1: slycordinator, you can voice yourself with !!up
asciilifeform: hi slycordinator
asciilifeform: slycordinator: yes i'm aware that comment-eater on my www is dead currently
asciilifeform: slycordinator: were you looking for hints re rk3328 ? what do you need ?
asciilifeform: !!up slycordinator
deedbot: slycordinator voiced for 30 minutes.
slycordinator: So, I haven't purchased one of the devices but I'm considering it as a local NAS for plex.
asciilifeform: which device ? rk3328 ?
asciilifeform: should work fine for nas, sure
slycordinator: Yes
slycordinator: and i was wanting to use a usb3 enclosure to salvage my laptop drive that's got the movies on it, using that for the / partition
asciilifeform: this doesn't require any changes to the published example
slycordinator: but i wasn't sure if the install stuff you had on your site would work for that instead of using a usb stick because of drivers and such
asciilifeform: thing will boot off whatever's plugged in
slycordinator: alright, sweet.
slycordinator: thanks
slycordinator: shouldn't be difficult then to make the switch once i get everything
asciilifeform: slycordinator: the only 'driver' is the ehci thing , i rolled it into the example kernel, it'll work with any mass storage item plugged into the jack
asciilifeform: lemme guess, slycordinator , this is yer first linux box ?
slycordinator: no; i've used gentoo off and on for a while. it would be my first raspberry pi-like box, though
asciilifeform: ah
slycordinator: should be quite an easy build
slycordinator: thanks for the information again. i have to go to bed. it's late here in Korea and I have to be up in the morning to teach
asciilifeform: goodnight slycordinator
asciilifeform: slycordinator: you can voice yourself when you come back,
asciilifeform: !!help
deedbot: http://deedbot.org/help.html
asciilifeform: ^ see manual
slycordinator: have a good day
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-15#1862750 << i ought expand, since ave1 asked : my measurement is indirect, and is possible that could be wrong. what i did was to look for latency variance ( if my optical terminal knew how to send variant frames, shorter packets oughta move faster ) -- but found none, to the resolution of my clock.
a111: Logged on 2018-10-15 09:33 ave1: asciilifeform, http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-14#1862451, I've been reading through the logs and could find no reference of how you did this. Could this be monitored with an FPGA? (there seem to be MAC level FPGA based routers).
asciilifeform: haven't found yet a clear answer re what my particular isp's wan frame size is, however. ( and i expect that it will be peculiar to the given isp's gear , and may not apply across the board )
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-15#1862785 << a working 'atomic' create-or-fail-if-exists by definition excludes this scenario. linux claims to offer one, http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-11#1860739 , but i've nfi yet whether it worx as printed on the crate
a111: Logged on 2018-10-15 10:15 mircea_popescu: specifically what i mean : if a process creates/deletes file on a very narrow schedule ; and another checks for file's existence on very narrow schedule, their respective pictures of when they think file exists and doesn't fails to match up.
a111: Logged on 2018-10-11 20:07 phf: asciilifeform: so the posix solution is to call open with O_CREAT | O_EXCL, which will attempt to create but will signal EEXIST if the file already exists. curiously default behavior O_CREAT will simply clobber
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2018/10/congo-family-pulls-caper-to-secure-relatives-corpse-after-ebola-death/ << Qntra - Congo: Family Pulls Caper To Secure Relative's Corpse After Ebola Death
billymg: trinque: just a heads up, i'll be away from my machine for the next few days but should be able to have stuff put together by friday or early saturday, and will share
asciilifeform: billymg: neato
asciilifeform: in unrelated noose, mod6 et al : loox like trb doesn't remove banned peers from its addr table ! i.e. offers their addrs up to others, as if they were proper noades!! i never noticed this previously, it had to wait to be found empirically. really oughta be fixed, and pretty simple patch.
asciilifeform: just when i think 'no moar shitoshi surprises possible', i turn up yet another.
mircea_popescu: eulora is so much fucking nicer when you wake up to a working foxybot!
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform aha.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-15#1862676 << speaking of this, might as well take the time to discuss the "stub manifest" point.
a111: Logged on 2018-10-15 03:55 mircea_popescu: the leaves downstream from EACH n1 needn't be identical, nor needn't be different. in effect, the tree now has TWO groups of maintainers : those who maintain type 2 tree, for embeds, will not === those who maintain type 1 tree, for general use.
mircea_popescu: so -- looking back to the crc32 situation, suppose that for whatever reason the consensus wasn't "yeah, should definitely have both" but "division is stupid, only tables are needed". at that juncture, ave1 could have made an alternate patch to the crc32-lookup consisting of merely a changed manifest, saying "Hey, for so and so reasons I think this should be a crc32-division, I intend to do it later."
mircea_popescu: then later, when he had the time for it, or when others saw the wisdom of the point after his death, or whenever, that stub could've been replaced with the proper item.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-15#1862793 << i'd rather never have to import c strings anywhere either, i'd say a major goal of the whole effort is to get rid of them. so paranthesis-yes!
a111: Logged on 2018-10-15 10:26 ave1: btw, gnat specific; System.OS_Lib has 'Create_New_File' (it also has a temp file generator, but I cannot recommend, uses digits). bvt's implemention looks the way to go (Although the string allocations to talk to C should be removed)
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-15#1862800 << afaik he doesn't read pm's.
a111: Logged on 2018-10-15 11:30 slycordinator: I thought it was him. I sent a PM earlier but wasn't sure if someone else was also involved.
asciilifeform: i read'em, 1x/day or so
mircea_popescu: a ok.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-15#1862805 << any of the koreans you teach meet the qualifications of a) female b) young c) bright and d) active ? cuz there might be a job opening for one.
a111: Logged on 2018-10-15 11:37 slycordinator: So, to introduce myself, I'm an American living in Korea teaching English and studying data science/machine learning in my free time
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: btw for completeness strictly, note that there exists a ~third~ crc32 : division normally, but optionally generates table and then continues with table
asciilifeform: i've used this in embedded boxen
asciilifeform: ( it made sense when rom small but ram large )
mircea_popescu: could live as patch on ave1 's patch lel
asciilifeform: easily
asciilifeform: supposing anybody actually needed this.
mircea_popescu: anyway, whole point being that we have elaborate research-driving/agreement-building & history-preservation tools.
mircea_popescu: not that anyone has to use them for any purpose. but -- they do indeed exist.
asciilifeform: verily
mircea_popescu: i suppose they do create some obligation, as per ye olde "if you can -- you must", in the sense that much like girl can't imagien why she'd mate with dood who doesn't use soap, i can't imagine why i'd talk to dood who "has ideas" or w/e they call being filthy outside the walls.
asciilifeform: ups the bar for civilization, indeed, sorta like once you've used indoor shitter you generally intend to keep using
mircea_popescu: god knows all my attempts to dialogue, from http://trilema.com/surprised-by-joy-the-shape-of-my-early-life-adnotated to http://trilema.com/2017/the-ethics-of-liberty-by-murray-n-rothbard-adnotated-part-vi-a-crusoe-social-philosophy/ to http://trilema.com/2014/on-the-superiority-of-monarchy-or-adnotations-to-why-the-worst-get-on-top/ to what have you are entirely indistinguishable from "one day, mp decided to pay $x a visit ;
mircea_popescu: soon thereafter returned, very puzzled -- why doesn't $x ever wash ?!"
mircea_popescu: and this started after eg mpoepr's ~exhausting the live ponds.
mircea_popescu: because yes, there very much is such a thing as a bar for civilisation, or at the very least for conversation. ~could~ talk to anyone, much like ~could~ very much shit outdoors ; but one strangely enough discovers in a short time that... doesn't really want to.
mircea_popescu: the puzzler of all time for the average fetlife-grazed chickie, too. "wait... you mean to tell me ~you~ don't really care to talk ~to me~ ?!@?!?! but pantsuited hilarity gave us our rights!!!" sorta "this development goes neatly against everything i've been told to believe."
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform to go back to that thread : i suppose the "portability" discussion is deeply broken in empire (and no, linus, rms and friends aren't "a republic of their own", they're leningrad school and naught else). consider how http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-15#1862894 drives the dilemma : "if the trouble of maintaining a tree is not justified, why do you think the iron discussed is worth having ? if you think the iron disc
a111: Logged on 2018-10-15 16:44 asciilifeform: supposing anybody actually needed this.
mircea_popescu: ussed is worth having, why do you think maintaining the respective branch is too much work ?"
mircea_popescu: ie, before us, "portability" was an abstract nothing, single-datapoint debalanced nonsense, like "the pursuit of happiness" or "safety first" or "no means no" or whatever other fucktarded pantsuit nonsense.
mircea_popescu: after us, it is a stable, sustainable and sane item, two data points : "to get x you burn y, make a call"
asciilifeform: 'portability' without active testing is an empty promisetronic thing
asciilifeform: hence the retardation of autoconfism
mircea_popescu: how the fuck they managed to live before, uncomputable-cost-portability herp derp is anyone's guess.
asciilifeform: ( or consider http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-15#1862533 thread )
a111: Logged on 2018-10-15 00:25 phf: but you would never know, because in sbcl it generally does the right thing
mircea_popescu: (and the experienced historians among the "anyone" guessing will point to -- HIDDEN EXTERNALITY!!! as fucking always! they hijacked their conversation channels to repeat over and over AND OVER again "if you want it -- write it", ie, "the cost of portability, as the backflow of using stupid hardware, is hidden under the rug tee heee")
asciilifeform: btw phf , i'm starting to think that esthlos-vtron could be turned into a proper replacement for asdf,quicklisp,all the heathen rubbish packagerisms
asciilifeform: really, sbcl ( or any other cltron ) oughta boot up by eating a set of keys and a vtree.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform precisely my poiont. yet again as always & forever, the http://btcbase.org/log/2018-02-14#1783773 of http://trilema.com/2018/democracy-sucks-the-two-thousand-four-hundred-and-change-years-old-version/ at work.
a111: Logged on 2018-02-14 14:22 mircea_popescu: MEANWHILE, however, they have 100% unaccounted for the time externality. so basically it's a contest consisting of a guy without legs going about finding fault with people's fingers. because he's decided "legs don't count", and so as he has much better hands than the rest of those losers he should be captain of the football team.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i thought trinque was doing that exact thing for the linux machine.
asciilifeform: as eventual replacement for 'portage' aha
mircea_popescu: right ? gentoo.portage ~= sblc.asdf ?
asciilifeform: a trooly ultimate sane replacement could replace both, yes
mircea_popescu: it's kinda funny how the predictable result of an hour's logs is that... "hey guise... there's even MOAR space at the trough than we thought! you have engineermanyears to put to some use ? ohohoh here, here, uses, pick, choose!"
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo "these varietes dominate" varietals ?
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: ty, fxd
BingoBoingo: In other punchlines, titless canadian man wins a women's cycling championship
mircea_popescu: "ruderalis plants reservoir " << you're missing a verb.
mircea_popescu: bwahaha. good thing hilary clinton gave them their rights!
BingoBoingo: fxd
mircea_popescu: http://bingology.net/2018/10/14/that-one-agricultural-product-and-uruguay/#selection-125.68-125.85 << i've recently seen this, it was something else. "like triple-dose ketamine"'d be the best way to describe it, nevermind "could not walk", subj could not keep eyes open, 6+ hrs.
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo there's no such thing as "propogation"!
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: There have been a number of times in Uruguay where I walked through what could have been "opium den" scenes, except without anyone being in danger of acute respiratory cessation
BingoBoingo: fx'd again
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo it does go pretty faint, the respiration. which yes, can definitely panic the more medically-informed.
BingoBoingo has not taken to close measurements of vital signs
mircea_popescu: lmao the drug on wars. ok, i was entertain't.
BingoBoingo: *not taken to collecting
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> lmao the drug on wars. ok, i was entertain't. << Intentional
mircea_popescu: oh, i'm sure.
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo is there some subtext of "hey, anyone wanna finance my becoming a grower" in there ?
mircea_popescu: "As they succeeded, the cool is gone" << so fucking true!
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Not at present. I am too stretched for time at the moment. It is more of a dump information of of my head to consult it later without keeping it in an active workspace portion of the head piece.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-15#1862935 << lol, how much does one gotta take, to get to this
a111: Logged on 2018-10-15 17:19 mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo it does go pretty faint, the respiration. which yes, can definitely panic the more medically-informed.
mircea_popescu: (also great case study in http://trilema.com/2015/the-triviality-of-slaying-the-surviving-socialist-beast/ ; it takes barely a farthing's worth of concerted effort to rape ourdemocracy in any ghole you choose. the only reason pedophilia, necrophilia or w/e else isn't "legally protected" today is strictly that all pedos, necrophiliacs etc are fucking morons. otherwise, self-mutilation legally protected to the degree of http://
mircea_popescu: btcbase.org/log/2018-10-15#1862927 ; and similarly ANYTHING ELSE. the bar strictly is "more than three people get together who aren't mentally subnormal". that's it!)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform three tokes.
asciilifeform: of leaf?!
mircea_popescu: yeah.

2018-10-14