Logs for #asciilifeform

Go to: #trilema #pizarro #asciilifeform #trilema-mod6 #chainstate #eulora

2019-1-31 | 2019-3-1

adlai: writing about your work and publishing it is also progress, admittedly of a different sort
adlai: but it's the source of what makes you other than 'man alone'
verisimilitude: I wonder, asciilifeform, what is your Ada development environment like?
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: gnat, and as of ch11 ave1's, see ch11 for link.
verisimilitude: Alright; which editor do you use, also?
asciilifeform: emacs
verisimilitude: I've been using Emacs, but I can't help but feel I'm not getting the most out of it for Ada programming.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=from%3Aasciilifeform++emacs << see also.
verisimilitude: Do you have any special modes or other things or are you just using what comes by default?
verisimilitude: I'll make certain to look at that as well.
asciilifeform: ada-mode + flymake, never felt any need for any elaborate mechanization beyond these.
verisimilitude: I'll look into flymake-mode.
verisimilitude: I appreciate the answers, asciilifeform.
asciilifeform: 100% of what i use in re ada-on-emacs came with stock emacs 24.
asciilifeform brb,tea
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: if you're new to ada, i suspect that you will find that your desire for 'fancy' editor evaporates when you get familiar with the lang.
asciilifeform: if 'uses as prescribed', it tends to prohibit the gnarl that makes 'fancy' e.g. cpp editor feel like an essential.
verisimilitude: I'm fairly new, yes. I started learning three months ago with ``Programming in Ada 2012'' by recommendation of #ada.
verisimilitude: I haven't read it in the last month, though, and I recently gave up on writing some Ada by hand that I really should've been automatically generating, but didn't care to.
asciilifeform: ( in re my item in particular, you will find that i simply don't use most of the lang and standard library at all )
asciilifeform: and at no point was i tempted to auto-generate any of it.
asciilifeform: ( the 'generics' feature pretty much eli
asciilifeform: minates this need, if you genuinely have it )
verisimilitude: The code I was writing was repetitive, even with generics.
asciilifeform: i've yet to witness this marvel with own eyes, but will believe
verisimilitude: What I was doing was trying to take the same approach to a problem I already used with Common Lisp and heavy metaprogramming, but I now feel that was foolhardy.
verisimilitude: I have a quick question concerning your website, asciilifeform: You have a number of different websites in the ``People'' section; what criteria do you use for deciding the contents thereof?
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: 2 types, ones i know in person, and others that write or at one time wrote (updated erry coupla yrs) something interesting.
verisimilitude: Would you be interested in taking a look at my website and seeing if you'd add me to yours and me add yours to mine?
asciilifeform: sure , let's see it
verisimilitude: Here it is: http://verisimilitudes.net/
asciilifeform: don't feel sad if i dun link it , tho, i very infrequently update the list ( and nowadays usually in the direction of removing dead things )
verisimilitude: Here's my main article and project: http://verisimilitudes.net/2017-07-07
asciilifeform: oh hm possibly i read this before
asciilifeform: you're the mips fella
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: congrats, yer on the list nao.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: consider visiting #trilema and regging pgp key with deedbot, btw
asciilifeform: i'll give you a rating.
asciilifeform: http://deedbot.org/help.html
verisimilitude: Of course my connection would fail on me at that time.
asciilifeform: #trilema ( mircea_popescu's chan ) is where most of the action is, there's a coupla www log mirrors, e.g. http://btcbase.org/log/
verisimilitude: Anyway, that main project is why I decided to learn Ada; I sought to reimplement a simpler version of it and being able to survive memory exhaustion, use little memory, and other things were a great concern, so Ada seemed a good candidate.
verisimilitude: I'm loading the logs now.
asciilifeform: lemme know when you have a pgp key in deedbot, i'll give you a +1.
asciilifeform: then you will be able to speak in #t ( tho i recommend to lurk for a spell, thing isn't for everyone )
verisimilitude: I've been in #trilema before, actually.
asciilifeform: ah
asciilifeform: figures
verisimilitude: I'd had some queer issues generating a PGP key and simply hadn't returned.
verisimilitude: I've been considering it, though; it seems an interesting channel.
verisimilitude: Now I'm caught up; I'm on the list am I; I take it that's a list to be added to that section?
asciilifeform: nah yer live
verisimilitude: Would you rephrase that?
asciilifeform: the links bar on my www, that is
verisimilitude: Oh, alright; I'll add you to mine, then.
verisimilitude: I include descriptions for mine; is there any particular description you'd want to use?
asciilifeform: reg w/ deedbot, then you can be part of the conversation if/when you feel up to it.
asciilifeform: i'ma bbl.
verisimilitude: Alright.
shinohai: That monochrome display is sick asciilifeform :)
asciilifeform: it's a++ . nao if only it fit a machine other than that horror with toy store keyboard.
asciilifeform: circa '09 or so.
shinohai: I could see troubling myself to 3-D print a case if appropriate board was found, use with usb keyboard for mini box
asciilifeform: not case problem
asciilifeform: electrical fit.
shinohai: o ic
asciilifeform: can get a dvi driver for it for about 20bux tho, if you're willing to carry a breadbox as a lappy
asciilifeform: (i'm not)
shinohai: Also asciilifeform has honor of being the first rss feed to come across my bot, so now I know it worx lol
shinohai: re: your discussion on portage in #t asciilifeform ... thus far I have had success running own local portage host w/ packages I need, dunno if option for your use case. (as binhost so I dont have to compile same packages 1000 times)
asciilifeform: shinohai: that's half the point of cuntoo -- fixed portage mirror.
asciilifeform: as for packages, the only use case i see for those is bring-up of minimal set needed for building. i do not use canned packages anywhere else and don't intend to start.
shinohai: I started this on own recipe, because like you said emerge sync would break everything with my USE flags if I didn't
asciilifeform: shinohai: the eventual goal is 'cuntoo disk has vtron , compiler, & kernel, errything else comes from mirrors where sourceballs are signed by l1'
shinohai *nods*
verisimilitude: I've started reading your FFA articles. I've yet to do so seriously; what I did was scan through it all to get a feeling for an Ada program organization convention.
verisimilitude: I'm glad your articles are available. I anticipate the next time being a serious read through and complete understanding and then going on up through the following articles in the series.
verisimilitude: I do have a question for you about something. Why do you not use child packages in cases such as Word_Ops, FZ_Type, FZ_Arith and whatnot?
asciilifeform: hi verisimilitude
verisimilitude: Hello, asciilifeform.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: what would be gained from lining'em up in child packages ?
verisimilitude: One could argue the hierarchy, where one exists, would be a tad more clear; a child package also doesn't need to with its parent.
verisimilitude: Mostly, I'm just wondering if this was a stylistic choice on your part.
asciilifeform: as i see it, it'd make sense if ffa were sectioned into chunks that are likely to be used selectively. but how often do you write a proggy that, e.g., needs addition but not multiplication ?
asciilifeform: imho ffa is simply too small, conceptually, to be divisible this way. hence flat package.
verisimilitude: Alright; that makes good sense.
asciilifeform: and yes deliberate choice, like errythingelse in ffa.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: feel free to comment on my www also, btw, as you read these.
asciilifeform: ( there's a ~day or so delay in the mod queue, but generally i empty it errynight )
verisimilitude: I was looking at your organization to get a feeling for how I'd organize my own program, but I believe I'll be using child packages for now, given my considerations; I can always change it later, anyway.
verisimilitude: I'll keep that in mind, asciilifeform.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: how to organize proggy, depends on how much it weighs, conceptually; really author has to use his head, there is no apriori 'do this'
verisimilitude: I know, but I figured looking around wouldn't hurt. I'm not accustomed to using a programming language before I fully understand it, which is part of it.
asciilifeform: keep in mind also that all 'fancy' knobs have a cost, if not at run time -- then compile time, and if not even at compile time -- then simply because they occupy space on the page
verisimilitude: I expect I'll perhaps be refining things for years to come, but starting somewhere is a necessary stage in that.
asciilifeform: it is quite impossible to have something to refine without 1st... writing the proggy, lol
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: if your item is compact enough, reorganizing later won't feel like an impossible job. e.g. ffa was originally 1 .adb , i cut it into pieces year or so into the proj
asciilifeform: and it took maybe hour.
verisimilitude: My program should be less than 3,000 lines, easily. It's also easy to reorganize if you wrote it or understand all of it, yes.
verisimilitude: I tend to prefer single file programs as well, but with Ada I'm playing around with separate bodies and specifications and giving some procedures they're own files and all of that.
asciilifeform: imho if you wrote it but don't understand all of it, something went seriously wrong, and time to start over
verisimilitude: s/they're/their/
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: iirc you were writing a cad system ? or what was it
verisimilitude: The converse isn't true, though. Just because you wrote a program and understand all of it doesn't mean something didn't seriously go wrong.
verisimilitude: I'm experiencing that, firsthand, even.
verisimilitude: It's a machine code development tool, asciilifeform.
asciilifeform: aa
asciilifeform: how does this work tho ? if you find 'surprise', then evidently you did not in fact understand all
verisimilitude: I just mean it's horribly ugly, in my eyes.
verisimilitude: I experimented, asciilifeform, and I didn't care for the entire result.
asciilifeform: it does happen that an entire problem is ill-posed
asciilifeform: but not being familiar with your item, i am not in a pos to comment in detail re whether so
verisimilitude: My issue was the customization system I created. Care for a concise explanation?
asciilifeform: for instance,
asciilifeform: i started out writing a 'conventional' bignumtron, with 'growable' integers. and quickly concluded that the problem is ill-posed, there is no way for an arithmetron with growable (i.e. non-fixed-bitness) ints to run in constant time.
verisimilitude: I've seen an unfinished proposal to add bignums and bounded bignums to Ada 2020.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: they're actually in there (but not exposed to user)
asciilifeform: take a look at the gnat src some time, it's a horror
asciilifeform: ( contains not only this, but, e.g., an entire SNOBOL , and many other things )
verisimilitude: Do you have any thoughts on that? From what I've heard from others, this organization isn't very privy to outside comments.
verisimilitude: GNAT contains an entire implementation of SNOBOL?
asciilifeform: i never had any dealings with the organization
asciilifeform: aside from downloading the compiler
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: indeed does
verisimilitude: That seems entirely plausible for a GNU project.
verisimilitude: I like GNU, but I also don't need to delve into the sources often.
asciilifeform: sadly i quite often find it necessary to dig into the compiler src.
asciilifeform: ( see the current 2 days' thrd in #t, for instance )
asciilifeform: for instance, implementing cmdline params without dragging in the secondary stack (described in ch4) took some digging.
verisimilitude: Considering how capable machines are, there's good sense in the idea a compiler should be written declaratively and clearly, rather than aim to be maximally efficient.
asciilifeform: gnat does not shine as a compiler, or as a readable src. but it's the only usable one.
asciilifeform: ( i have exactly 0 interest in the closed winshitballs purporting to also implement ada )
asciilifeform: ftr gnat also suffers from a substantial weakness, in that it can only be built with gnat.
asciilifeform: presently there is no cure for this.
asciilifeform: (again see #t logs, particularly http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=thompsonism )
verisimilitude: Yes; we discussed this in there, however lightly, before I was muted.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: don't hesitate to read the logs; in fact i'm rather surprised that you took an interest in ffa without even having found out what it was for
verisimilitude: I first started reading your website years ago, before FFA.
asciilifeform: ( it was not written as a 'wouldn't it be neat' intellectual exercise, but for specific applications )
asciilifeform: aa
verisimilitude: I've never read all of it at any point, but I'd check around and skulk through every now and again.
asciilifeform: worth reading, for instance, the gossipd threads. and the ones about koch.
asciilifeform: and i suspect will begin to make sense.
verisimilitude: You refer to #trilema logs?
asciilifeform: aha
verisimilitude: Or are you referring to an article on your website?
asciilifeform: #t log
verisimilitude: As figured, then.
asciilifeform: ffa is as good a starting point as any, but it is part of a larger whole, that only makes sense in light of the log.
verisimilitude: Well, if that were necessary, FFA wouldn't fit in the head, would it?
asciilifeform: whole thing fits in head readily. but only if make effort.
verisimilitude: I'm not certain I want to associate with Mircea Popescu is part of it. I want to associate with you, though, which is why I'm in this channel instead of #trilema.
asciilifeform: if you dig into my worx, will become apparent at some point why i work with mp and not with ameristani academy of sciences
asciilifeform: it isn't happenstance.
verisimilitude: I don't like academia either, but that's part of why I tend to do solitary work.
asciilifeform: solitary has distinct down side
asciilifeform: familiar with oliver heaviside ?
verisimilitude: Enlighten me.
asciilifeform: he doesn't fit in a paragraph, i recommend to dig.
asciilifeform: fella who reduced maxwell's 23 equations, to the 4 in yer kindergarten textbook.
asciilifeform: also did quite a few other things, but most of'em stoked his relatives' furnaces after he died.
asciilifeform: cuz 'solitary'.
verisimilitude: That's why I have my website, though, and show it to others; my ideas won't necessarily die when I do.
asciilifeform: i did this for ~decade, in retrospect it sucked compared to having other folx seriously read/test/comment.
verisimilitude: I understand everyone likes having their group, but I already have a few I enjoy. I work alone, but I have others to discuss with and all of that.
asciilifeform: the other serious risk of working alone is drift. i.e. backing into a dead end and no one to wake you up and 'wait a sec'
verisimilitude: I suppose.
verisimilitude: I won't dismiss the idea entirely, asciilifeform, but reading his website has put a bad taste in my mouth; I can't tell how much of it is serious in parts.
asciilifeform: this is ~100% of noob reaction to date, you may be interested to learn.
verisimilitude: I do find that interesting, yes.
verisimilitude: That was also your reaction, then, I take it.
asciilifeform: lemme dig out mine:
asciilifeform: http://www.loper-os.org/?p=1108 , followed by http://www.loper-os.org/?p=1139
verisimilitude: Well, now everything makes more sense, certainly.
verisimilitude: Oh, how different things would be if I'd purchased some early bitcoins.
verisimilitude: Oh well.
asciilifeform: how diff what would be ?
asciilifeform: realize, most of the folx who loaded up in '09-14, ended up doing something stupid and losing their shirts
verisimilitude: That's a difficult question to answer, because I likely wouldn't have found my current group if so and my current group is a nice feedback central of good conversation.
asciilifeform: people commonly imagine 'if i found a bag of gold, Everything Will Be Different', but the result is more typically sibmilar to being in a car wreck than to what the finder imagined
verisimilitude: I could've very well ended up a completely different individual is the brunt of it.
asciilifeform: *similar
asciilifeform: bag of moolah is a dangerous power tool, no less so than e.g. fully fueled boeing
verisimilitude: Sure. I could've easily wound up one of the hipsters bleeding to death, say.
asciilifeform: i dare say, typically ~best case~ outcome for the early bitcoinists, was 'lose errything'
asciilifeform: ( plenty ended up in debt, or ate their pistol, or jailed, or went mad )
asciilifeform: typical specimen , sold all in '14, at 'hey, 250 $, peak!111' to 'buy house' or 'furnace is leaking' or because read reddit etc.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: are you familiar with the 'privatization vouchers' in 1990s russia ?
asciilifeform: kpss caput; communist factories 'privatized', distribute 'vouchers' (roughly, shares of stock) to employees
asciilifeform: who promptly sold'em for pennies to buy bread.
BingoBoingo: Many triple digit BTC cars out there
asciilifeform: there were also folx who showed up to buy'em. such as mp.
verisimilitude: I wasn't familiar, no, asciilifeform.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: i recc. to become familiar. cuz 'history does not repeat, but does rhyme'
verisimilitude: I try, but I must balance my topics.
asciilifeform: i met various sov emigres , who also 'balanced topics' , 1st class mathematicians, physicists, who now drive cabs
verisimilitude: Almost everything I read for the past few years is related to computers or programming or mathematics.
asciilifeform: 'you may not be interested in war, but war is very interested in you'
verisimilitude: So, I'm reasonably well-versed in computing history.
asciilifeform: then chances are you know about chairman of ibm who passed up on retaining ownership on msdos, cuz 'there is a market for perhaps 50 computers in the world'
verisimilitude: I know a decent bit about that part of IBM, Digital Research, and Microsoft's history, yes.
verisimilitude: Care to know why I found myself with such a deep interest in computing and whatnot, asciilifeform?
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: i assume it's same as ~everyone else, i.e. you found a c64 in junkyard as a boy
asciilifeform: but if different, why not , tell
verisimilitude: I was younger and decided it was time I chose the topic I dedicated my life to.
verisimilitude: Ideally, this is a topic I can make an impression on.
verisimilitude: I thought math was the clear choice and automatic computing was what I then deemed roughly the youngest large subfield of math.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: you may find it interesting that in su, was to the end organized as subfield of applied maffs
asciilifeform: (e.g. asciilifeform's brother wanted to program, had to go for maffsdegree )
verisimilitude: I do find that interesting, yes.
asciilifeform: e. dijkstra, in europistan, was convinced that all ills in software stem from mathematically-illiterate folx laying their dirty hands on the machine
asciilifeform: ( i do not find this pov convincing, the requisite skills are quite different for a stateful box vs theorem on a page )
verisimilitude: There's some truth in it, certainly.
verisimilitude: He didn't like APL nor Ada, though.
asciilifeform: he liked however the approach where one is required to actually understand what yer doing
asciilifeform: which is why he is worth reading, and his contemporaries -- mostly not
verisimilitude: As do I; programming is a math, not a science, and shouldn't be treated as such.
verisimilitude: There's an article I like to use as an example of this.
asciilifeform: prog lang is interesting strictly to the extent that it is a vehicle for forcing you to understand wtf yer doing when you write.
verisimilitude: This is the drivel:
verisimilitude: http://morningcoffee.io/boolean-short-circuiting-is-not-guaranteed-in-sql.html
verisimilitude: Instead of actually knowing the language, this fool writes a test to check his ``hypothesis''.
asciilifeform: at least there ~was~ something for him to read
verisimilitude: This person uses SQL without a real understanding of what he's doing. Reading the standard never occured to him, apparently.
asciilifeform: in e.g. c, it is impossible to write a nontrivial proggy that doesn't touch upon an 'undefined' feature in the iso std ( e.g. what does variable do when overflows ).
asciilifeform: and yer stuck with empirical test, if on unknown machine
verisimilitude: Yes.
verisimilitude: You may find this amusing, asciilifeform.
asciilifeform: ( see also http://www.loper-os.org/?p=1913#selection-83.0-83.138 observation )
verisimilitude: In my earlier years, I was, of course, looking for a language to learn and I'd heard about C and so sought to learn it first.
verisimilitude: However, I learn a language by reading a standard and a relevant book and whatnot.
verisimilitude: So, in contrast to so many C programmers who don't know C, I was learning C to find a hideously complicated language with none of the qualities ascribed to it. Even the syntactical rules were disgusting.
asciilifeform: i know of currently exactly 2 highlevel langs where you can actually write nontrivial proggy using only what's in the paper standard -- cl and ada
verisimilitude: So, I stopped and went to a different language.
shinohai: asciilifeform: for trbists, my bot now grabs the coin.dance chart for nodes and takes daily snapshot: http://btcinfo.sdf.org/library/bitcoin/trb/nodes/nodedata.html
asciilifeform: shinohai: i've a 80+% written net walker for node mapping, but it's on back burner , pending other stuffs.
shinohai: i wish ben_vulpes was still around mimisbrunnr was nice
shinohai: walking own node I see 12 known trb nodes, bitnodes reports only 9
asciilifeform: shinohai: keep in mind that these folx only report trb when it is set to spoof version >=0.8
shinohai: For them to even *see* my node had to whitelist 'em.
shinohai: is pete advertising as trb node these days?
asciilifeform: last i saw, his were dead
shinohai: rip
asciilifeform: either that, or perma-wedged, iirc he walked off prior to the 'aggression' patch.
shinohai: agression + awsbanhaamer=happynode
BingoBoingo: last I saw his were on weird version string

2019-1-31 | 2019-3-1